1 00:00:05,500 --> 00:00:16,660 [Music] 2 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:19,970 this is your host Chris George Zuger and 3 00:00:23,990 --> 00:00:21,810 you have entered at the den of war 4 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:24,000 please do grab your glasses of scotch 5 00:00:27,589 --> 00:00:25,890 for your chair up to the fire because 6 00:00:30,380 --> 00:00:27,599 we're we are going to learn some really 7 00:00:33,350 --> 00:00:30,390 cool tonight courtesy of a very 8 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:33,360 great man and scholar and historian and 9 00:00:37,660 --> 00:00:35,790 Egyptologist David Rohl we're going to 10 00:00:42,950 --> 00:00:37,670 be talking a via new Egyptian chronology 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:42,960 which is a quite famous for and well you 12 00:00:46,250 --> 00:00:44,489 know old old we'll see where the 13 00:00:48,940 --> 00:00:46,260 conversation takes us I've been waiting 14 00:00:51,889 --> 00:00:48,950 for this episode for quite quite a while 15 00:00:53,869 --> 00:00:51,899 ever since I saw a patterns of evidence 16 00:00:59,180 --> 00:00:53,879 Exodus on Netflix go check it out now 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:00:59,190 and Wow you know the the idea of this 18 00:01:03,470 --> 00:01:01,370 show we normally talk about the 19 00:01:06,230 --> 00:01:03,480 possibility of lost civilizations and 20 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:06,240 and pre-dynastic Egypt Egypt we haven't 21 00:01:12,109 --> 00:01:08,760 necessarily discussed a lot of the old 22 00:01:13,850 --> 00:01:12,119 middle and new kingdoms so this is an 23 00:01:15,730 --> 00:01:13,860 opportunity that we couldn't pass up and 24 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:15,740 [Music] 25 00:01:20,660 --> 00:01:18,450 David is has been gracious enough to 26 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:20,670 give us his evening use several time 27 00:01:26,660 --> 00:01:23,970 zones away to discuss with us this 28 00:01:29,359 --> 00:01:26,670 afternoon evening or morning depending 29 00:01:31,039 --> 00:01:29,369 on where you are all in the world and as 30 00:01:35,260 --> 00:01:31,049 always thank you very much for all 31 00:01:37,399 --> 00:01:35,270 tuning in we do love our listeners and 32 00:01:38,719 --> 00:01:37,409 one other thing I know that there we've 33 00:01:40,969 --> 00:01:38,729 had some listeners who have been asking 34 00:01:42,859 --> 00:01:40,979 how is it that I can support the show we 35 00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:42,869 identify or actually do have a new 36 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:45,000 patreon which you can check out at 37 00:01:49,399 --> 00:01:47,790 patreon.com forward slash den of lore if 38 00:01:51,350 --> 00:01:49,409 you'd like to be able to contribute to 39 00:01:53,719 --> 00:01:51,360 the success and I don't know maybe see 40 00:01:56,209 --> 00:01:53,729 several bit of long episodes a week we'd 41 00:01:58,300 --> 00:01:56,219 like to able to get it to us so you know 42 00:02:01,899 --> 00:01:58,310 support and we can get there together 43 00:02:04,539 --> 00:02:01,909 now for our opening segments 44 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:04,549 I wanted to give everybody out there a 45 00:02:09,669 --> 00:02:07,609 warm and wonderful update on mr. John 46 00:02:10,990 --> 00:02:09,679 Anthony West as you know we have been 47 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:11,000 supporting these John Anthony West 48 00:02:17,229 --> 00:02:14,410 project for a number of weeks now in 49 00:02:19,449 --> 00:02:17,239 supporting like labor with his efforts 50 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:19,459 to help support John Anthony West's 51 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:23,510 cancer treatment who is currently still 52 00:02:26,740 --> 00:02:24,170 in Houston 53 00:02:28,839 --> 00:02:26,750 I know that apparently he had been 54 00:02:31,420 --> 00:02:28,849 battling a bout of pneumonia recently 55 00:02:33,070 --> 00:02:31,430 while he was there and from what I 56 00:02:34,530 --> 00:02:33,080 understand he is on the up and up and 57 00:02:38,860 --> 00:02:34,540 doing well 58 00:02:41,470 --> 00:02:38,870 when we last left the fundly campaign 59 00:02:45,339 --> 00:02:41,480 which you can see it funnily calm Ford / 60 00:02:48,850 --> 00:02:45,349 John Anthony West project or John / 61 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:48,860 Anthony / West / project or just type in 62 00:02:56,110 --> 00:02:51,260 John Anthony West fund Lee or go to John 63 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:56,120 Anthony West's website to see how to see 64 00:03:00,430 --> 00:02:58,370 how you can contribute if you can you 65 00:03:03,220 --> 00:03:00,440 can also visit den of Lord com ford 66 00:03:05,170 --> 00:03:03,230 slash WP P if you'd like to if you don't 67 00:03:07,780 --> 00:03:05,180 like to use credit card but you prefer 68 00:03:09,789 --> 00:03:07,790 PayPal we have a way to contribute to 69 00:03:13,830 --> 00:03:09,799 his health fund that goes directly to 70 00:03:16,150 --> 00:03:13,840 the West family as well as the fund Lee 71 00:03:19,110 --> 00:03:16,160 last week's show I think we ended up at 72 00:03:21,940 --> 00:03:19,120 around eighty two thousand in the last 73 00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:21,950 week it's jumped up to eighty eight 74 00:03:26,830 --> 00:03:23,660 thousand six hundred and eleven dollars 75 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:26,840 with thirty seven days left in the fund 76 00:03:32,589 --> 00:03:30,049 Lee campaign there are links to the 77 00:03:35,530 --> 00:03:32,599 giving levels and your perks if you do 78 00:03:37,390 --> 00:03:35,540 donate in the show notes in addition to 79 00:03:40,210 --> 00:03:37,400 the fund Lee campaign does have those on 80 00:03:42,250 --> 00:03:40,220 as well if you'd like a shout out on the 81 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:42,260 debt of lor you know donates thirty 82 00:03:46,509 --> 00:03:44,480 three dollars during the show send an 83 00:03:49,330 --> 00:03:46,519 email to info at den of Lord calm and I 84 00:03:53,349 --> 00:03:49,340 will give you a shout out at the end of 85 00:03:54,759 --> 00:03:53,359 the show now John if you are listening I 86 00:03:57,099 --> 00:03:54,769 hope that you are doing well you're a 87 00:03:59,650 --> 00:03:57,109 great man your fight is inspiring so 88 00:04:02,349 --> 00:03:59,660 many people I know that magical Egypt 89 00:04:05,140 --> 00:04:02,359 studios and you can check out some their 90 00:04:08,470 --> 00:04:05,150 initiative at magical Egypt com 91 00:04:10,479 --> 00:04:08,480 they are holding a silent auction and 92 00:04:13,659 --> 00:04:10,489 all proceeds will be going to John 93 00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:13,669 Anthony West's cancer fight I know that 94 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:15,350 the dead of lor is going to be 95 00:04:18,310 --> 00:04:16,010 contributing 96 00:04:20,980 --> 00:04:18,320 a signed copy of our John Anthony West 97 00:04:26,380 --> 00:04:20,990 project telephone shownotes by being 98 00:04:28,630 --> 00:04:26,390 Alyx as well as a laminated wood mounted 99 00:04:32,470 --> 00:04:28,640 copy signed by us here at the den of 100 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:32,480 lore from the campaign so if you can 101 00:04:35,380 --> 00:04:34,130 check that out sand should be up soon I 102 00:04:37,450 --> 00:04:35,390 still have to talk to Venise and 103 00:04:39,370 --> 00:04:37,460 finalize the details but John we stand 104 00:04:43,690 --> 00:04:39,380 with you and your family every single 105 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:43,700 step of the way now most importantly for 106 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:46,250 y all you ladies and gentlemen are here 107 00:04:50,590 --> 00:04:49,250 mr. David Rohl he is joining he's been 108 00:04:52,810 --> 00:04:50,600 on the line with me listening to us the 109 00:04:55,990 --> 00:04:52,820 entire time and I'm going to announce 110 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:56,000 him now the quick and skinny of it he 111 00:04:59,560 --> 00:04:57,050 doesn't need much of an introduction 112 00:05:02,620 --> 00:04:59,570 because he is so well known he is one of 113 00:05:06,970 --> 00:05:02,630 Britain's top Egyptologists and one of 114 00:05:09,430 --> 00:05:06,980 the world's top historians I has been 115 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:09,440 known for BBC specials fair when Kings 116 00:05:14,590 --> 00:05:12,050 in addition to being a large part of his 117 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:14,600 research being based off of patterns of 118 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:16,010 evidence Exodus 119 00:05:21,070 --> 00:05:18,410 David how are you doing today welcome 120 00:05:23,410 --> 00:05:21,080 into the den and thank you very much for 121 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:23,420 joining us I'm doing great Chris it's 122 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:25,010 nice to be with you well thank you very 123 00:05:29,860 --> 00:05:27,230 much I've met I love that voice that is 124 00:05:31,450 --> 00:05:29,870 amazing well a lot your voice too 125 00:05:33,790 --> 00:05:31,460 actually I just noticed the Canadian 126 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:33,800 little twist in the wood oat you don't 127 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:35,210 see it the American Way that's great I 128 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:38,810 love that and how's things been going in 129 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:41,510 Spain how's the weather been it's not 130 00:05:44,710 --> 00:05:43,130 being great this last few weeks actually 131 00:05:46,870 --> 00:05:44,720 we had quite a bit of winter we've had 132 00:05:48,940 --> 00:05:46,880 deep snow for a couple of days and then 133 00:05:52,030 --> 00:05:48,950 we've had lots of rain and storms and 134 00:05:54,430 --> 00:05:52,040 it's been quite dodgy and then it just 135 00:05:55,870 --> 00:05:54,440 started to sort of smile again upon as 136 00:05:57,730 --> 00:05:55,880 the last couple of days the sun's come 137 00:06:00,010 --> 00:05:57,740 out and the blue skies about but 138 00:06:01,510 --> 00:06:00,020 normally where I am we get about 20 days 139 00:06:03,220 --> 00:06:01,520 of rain a year and that's about it 140 00:06:05,290 --> 00:06:03,230 well I think we've had those 20 days in 141 00:06:07,390 --> 00:06:05,300 the last five days so we've had a lot of 142 00:06:09,010 --> 00:06:07,400 water on terrain but it's it's good for 143 00:06:10,780 --> 00:06:09,020 the ground it's it's good for the cherry 144 00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:10,790 trees we have 100 cherry trees on our 145 00:06:16,060 --> 00:06:13,070 plot and it's nice of them to get some 146 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:16,070 water and dealing with the the several 147 00:06:19,870 --> 00:06:18,050 we had several feet of snow last week 148 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:19,880 and now we're getting out feet of rain 149 00:06:24,070 --> 00:06:22,400 so you expect that from where you live 150 00:06:26,470 --> 00:06:24,080 but I don't expect you where I live to 151 00:06:28,510 --> 00:06:26,480 be honest well I've been to I've been to 152 00:06:29,410 --> 00:06:28,520 the area I spent two weeks in the 153 00:06:31,300 --> 00:06:29,420 Algarve 154 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:31,310 somehow yeah and it was it was 155 00:06:36,300 --> 00:06:34,370 absolutely stunning I my wife and I 156 00:06:39,190 --> 00:06:36,310 agreed that we have to find some way to 157 00:06:41,470 --> 00:06:39,200 some some way to retire or simply just 158 00:06:42,820 --> 00:06:41,480 work in Canada from somewhere in the 159 00:06:44,830 --> 00:06:42,830 Iberian Peninsula because it's 160 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:44,840 absolutely beautiful there it is a 161 00:06:49,630 --> 00:06:47,360 gorgeous place to live I must admit now 162 00:06:51,940 --> 00:06:49,640 from the accent I would take a very wild 163 00:06:55,090 --> 00:06:51,950 guess and say that you are not from 164 00:06:56,860 --> 00:06:55,100 Spain originally so correct but can you 165 00:07:03,850 --> 00:06:56,870 guess what part of it you care come from 166 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:03,860 for my accents or not I'm no I can't you 167 00:07:06,610 --> 00:07:05,570 know I probably do but the name is not 168 00:07:08,710 --> 00:07:06,620 coming right to me right at the moment 169 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:08,720 okay all right I was born in Manchester 170 00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:10,910 so that's not very far from Liverpool so 171 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:12,560 we've got this sort of Lancashire twang 172 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:14,510 to our voice it's not quite the posh 173 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:16,690 Queen's English that you get down south 174 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:19,010 but it's very fashionable to have an 175 00:07:22,930 --> 00:07:20,510 accent these day so I don't bother about 176 00:07:24,070 --> 00:07:22,940 it too much I tried it on the show once 177 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:24,080 or twice it just didn't end up working 178 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:25,850 working out too well my wife said Chris 179 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:29,810 you have to stop doing that okay that's 180 00:07:34,570 --> 00:07:32,090 great well thank you very much 181 00:07:36,340 --> 00:07:34,580 now would you having been born in in 182 00:07:38,020 --> 00:07:36,350 England I know I know that you've like 183 00:07:40,450 --> 00:07:38,030 you've travelled the world you have been 184 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:40,460 to Egypt numerous times you've been to 185 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:45,530 the the the Fertile Crescent of the Holy 186 00:07:51,190 --> 00:07:49,850 Land addition to the Middle East how did 187 00:07:53,530 --> 00:07:51,200 you get started with archaeology because 188 00:07:58,150 --> 00:07:53,540 I know that you have quite the history 189 00:08:00,310 --> 00:07:58,160 before your your history roots that's 190 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:00,320 very true I mean I started writing 191 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:02,810 Egyptian hieroglyphs when I was probably 192 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:05,510 seven years old don't ask me why I have 193 00:08:10,990 --> 00:08:08,930 no idea but we found a large exercise 194 00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:11,000 book full of Egyptian hieroglyphs that 195 00:08:14,980 --> 00:08:12,440 I'd written before I could even join up 196 00:08:16,870 --> 00:08:14,990 with the writing properly I was writing 197 00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:16,880 on the Kings lists of the Egyptians in 198 00:08:22,060 --> 00:08:19,910 hieroglyphs in Greek and also in English 199 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:22,070 and working all the dynasties out at the 200 00:08:27,580 --> 00:08:24,530 age of seven and I've no idea why that 201 00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:27,590 is it just and then I went to eg for the 202 00:08:34,150 --> 00:08:29,960 first time at the age of nine that was 203 00:08:36,820 --> 00:08:34,160 in 1960 and traveled on King Farouk 204 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:36,830 paddle steamer all the way from Cairo to 205 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:38,870 Abu Simbel King Farouk had just been 206 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:39,890 thrown out of the country a few years 207 00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:42,370 earlier with the Egyptian 208 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:45,279 revolution and so he was no longer there 209 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:47,380 and we commandeered his what we were 210 00:08:52,050 --> 00:08:49,630 equivalent to be a royal yacht which was 211 00:08:54,180 --> 00:08:52,060 still on the Nile and with its crew and 212 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:54,190 we we sailed all the way up the river 213 00:08:59,730 --> 00:08:57,490 for virtually 700 miles to Abu Simbel 214 00:09:04,230 --> 00:08:59,740 and that was my first experience of 215 00:09:07,140 --> 00:09:04,240 Egypt as a nine-year-old and since since 216 00:09:10,650 --> 00:09:07,150 you did that you had also again like you 217 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:10,660 would enter it in into Egyptology feel 218 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:12,430 fairly late within within your life I 219 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:17,860 know that before his true very true what 220 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:20,290 happened was I was into all this until 221 00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:23,200 about the age of 16 I suppose I was 222 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:24,910 going to Egypt several times 223 00:09:28,650 --> 00:09:27,250 doing all this work I don't mean it's 224 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:28,660 like most kids they fall in love with 225 00:09:32,310 --> 00:09:30,010 ancient Egypt at the age usually have 226 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:32,320 about seven or eight but I kept going 227 00:09:35,250 --> 00:09:34,000 with it until about the age of sixteen 228 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:35,260 then I got involved in the music 229 00:09:40,500 --> 00:09:36,640 industry because this was the sort of 230 00:09:42,630 --> 00:09:40,510 60s and I ended up spending 25 years in 231 00:09:44,970 --> 00:09:42,640 the music industry with bands and then I 232 00:09:46,550 --> 00:09:44,980 became a recording engineer and then 233 00:09:48,660 --> 00:09:46,560 from there I became a record producer 234 00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:48,670 working with some are quite well known 235 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:51,880 English UK bands and a few others and I 236 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:54,010 did that until sort of why I got to the 237 00:09:58,350 --> 00:09:56,410 stage where I learnt enough money not to 238 00:10:00,540 --> 00:09:58,360 have to do it anymore and I thought to 239 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:00,550 myself why am i working for three months 240 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:03,130 at a time working on an album for a rock 241 00:10:07,769 --> 00:10:05,380 band sitting in the studio for 16 hours 242 00:10:09,630 --> 00:10:07,779 a day blasting my ears smoking statey 243 00:10:12,390 --> 00:10:09,640 cigarettes a day it wasn't doing my 244 00:10:14,070 --> 00:10:12,400 health any good so I packed it in and I 245 00:10:17,519 --> 00:10:14,080 used the money from royalties my 246 00:10:18,930 --> 00:10:17,529 production royalties to finance a return 247 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:18,940 to university I had already been to 248 00:10:24,060 --> 00:10:20,200 university once before to study 249 00:10:27,170 --> 00:10:24,070 photography in my teens and then I I 250 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:27,180 went back again about the age of 35 and 251 00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:30,810 did a BA in ancient history and 252 00:10:36,030 --> 00:10:33,760 Egyptology with also more courses on 253 00:10:40,759 --> 00:10:36,040 levanta and archaeology and Meno Minoan 254 00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:40,769 and Mycenaean archaea a strange 255 00:10:49,259 --> 00:10:46,110 ok ladies and gentlemen sorry about that 256 00:10:51,810 --> 00:10:49,269 everybody Internet on both sides I know 257 00:10:53,189 --> 00:10:51,820 that I know that David isn't currently 258 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:53,199 on top of a mountain and is not using 259 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:54,850 land Internet and I'm using Canadian 260 00:10:59,189 --> 00:10:57,730 internet right so if any of our Canadian 261 00:11:00,540 --> 00:10:59,199 listeners understand if you've dealt 262 00:11:01,949 --> 00:11:00,550 with Rogers or if you're American and 263 00:11:04,050 --> 00:11:01,959 have dealt with Comcast you know what 264 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:04,060 throttling is like and considering how 265 00:11:08,730 --> 00:11:06,850 popular the show is getting they are not 266 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:08,740 necessarily liking us too much but still 267 00:11:11,189 --> 00:11:10,510 you guys love us and that's what's most 268 00:11:14,340 --> 00:11:11,199 important 269 00:11:18,150 --> 00:11:14,350 so I do apologize for that you had been 270 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:18,160 discussing your return to to college and 271 00:11:22,079 --> 00:11:20,529 your degree that's right I don't know 272 00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:22,089 where it cut out I just explained to 273 00:11:26,430 --> 00:11:24,430 people that I live on a mountain and my 274 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:26,440 receiver as it were from my transmitter 275 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:28,810 is 10 kilometers away so sometimes it 276 00:11:32,939 --> 00:11:30,970 does we do lose a signal occasionally so 277 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:32,949 hopefully it won't happen anymore yeah I 278 00:11:37,710 --> 00:11:35,410 mean I when I went to college University 279 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:37,720 College London that was at the age of 35 280 00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:41,050 I was studying ancient history and 281 00:11:46,439 --> 00:11:43,600 Egyptology with Levante and archeology 282 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:46,449 and Mycenaean Minoan archeology Greek 283 00:11:51,059 --> 00:11:48,010 archaic history I was doing the whole 284 00:11:54,689 --> 00:11:51,069 gambit of courses and then when I got my 285 00:11:57,750 --> 00:11:54,699 BA I went on to do an MA and a PhD and I 286 00:11:59,879 --> 00:11:57,760 was awarded a very prestigious award or 287 00:12:02,490 --> 00:11:59,889 scholarship to do that PhD at the 288 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:02,500 University of London the WUF Mason 289 00:12:06,329 --> 00:12:03,670 scholarship it was called history 290 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:06,339 scholarship so I I went on to do the PhD 291 00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:08,110 and it was on a very difficult subject 292 00:12:10,769 --> 00:12:09,760 area it was something called the 293 00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:10,779 chronology of the third intermediate 294 00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:13,060 period in Egypt which is a horrifying 295 00:12:19,319 --> 00:12:16,300 title and a horrifying subject but and 296 00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:19,329 then I was I gave a lecture to the Egypt 297 00:12:24,059 --> 00:12:21,279 exploration Society in London and in the 298 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:24,069 audience was a literary agent and he 299 00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:25,630 came up to me after the lecture and said 300 00:12:30,569 --> 00:12:27,550 are you represented by anybody I said no 301 00:12:31,590 --> 00:12:30,579 I mean I'm just a PhD student and he 302 00:12:34,079 --> 00:12:31,600 said well would you come to my office 303 00:12:36,210 --> 00:12:34,089 next week and so I humbled along there 304 00:12:39,689 --> 00:12:36,220 and within the space of probably about 305 00:12:41,939 --> 00:12:39,699 two months we'd got a major publishing 306 00:12:43,860 --> 00:12:41,949 deal and also a TV series called 307 00:12:46,500 --> 00:12:43,870 Pharaohs and Kings which was jointly 308 00:12:49,199 --> 00:12:46,510 produced by channel 4 in the UK and 309 00:12:50,850 --> 00:12:49,209 Discovery Channel in America and so in 310 00:12:52,259 --> 00:12:50,860 the end I was sort of dragged from 311 00:12:54,269 --> 00:12:52,269 university kicking and screaming and 312 00:12:57,330 --> 00:12:54,279 ended up really as a TV presenter and 313 00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:57,340 and author best-selling author 314 00:13:00,240 --> 00:12:58,330 and that's really being where my 315 00:13:01,560 --> 00:13:00,250 career's gone ever since I didn't go 316 00:13:02,910 --> 00:13:01,570 back to university after was because I 317 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:02,920 literally have no time to do so 318 00:13:07,830 --> 00:13:05,650 and for pharaohs and Kings that was a 319 00:13:09,870 --> 00:13:07,840 kind of a seminal release I know it was 320 00:13:13,470 --> 00:13:09,880 released in 1997 and there's a very good 321 00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:13,480 chance my mother had had gotten me into 322 00:13:20,370 --> 00:13:16,570 that all right well she she read 323 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:20,380 anything from Velikovsky and so that 324 00:13:26,430 --> 00:13:22,650 that's where a lot of a lot of the 325 00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:26,440 alternate side of ancient history came 326 00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:28,000 from in trying to be able to search for 327 00:13:32,130 --> 00:13:30,550 different opportunities in different you 328 00:13:35,790 --> 00:13:32,140 know different perspectives as it were 329 00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:35,800 so now the the Pharaohs and Kings I I've 330 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:37,420 watched a few of them they have never 331 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:38,830 been available here in Canada to my 332 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:40,210 knowledge and which is unfortunate as 333 00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:42,250 far as the shows are concerned how was 334 00:13:45,620 --> 00:13:43,510 it working on those and what was the 335 00:13:46,890 --> 00:13:45,630 process you started to to get that going 336 00:13:49,380 --> 00:13:46,900 well 337 00:13:50,850 --> 00:13:49,390 it's the usual thing with TV if you're 338 00:13:54,510 --> 00:13:50,860 not known if you're not a celebrity 339 00:13:57,090 --> 00:13:54,520 presenter like Michael Wood or John Romo 340 00:14:01,170 --> 00:13:57,100 day but the two main figures in this 341 00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:01,180 field in the 1990s you tend to have to 342 00:14:05,970 --> 00:14:03,310 go along with what the producers and 343 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:05,980 directors want you to do and it's only 344 00:14:08,910 --> 00:14:07,570 when you become well established that 345 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:08,920 you can turn the tables on them and say 346 00:14:11,310 --> 00:14:10,210 well I'm going to do it my way from now 347 00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:11,320 on that could nothing much they could do 348 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:13,390 about it because your fame allows you to 349 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:14,830 dictate to them how you want to do 350 00:14:19,890 --> 00:14:16,930 things so ferrocene Kings is the first 351 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:19,900 project I did for TV and it was quite a 352 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:22,570 difficult process for me because the 353 00:14:25,890 --> 00:14:24,130 producers were always wanting to do 354 00:14:27,270 --> 00:14:25,900 things in a certain way that I thought 355 00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:27,280 wasn't really the way that my 356 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:28,960 scholarship wanted to me to go they were 357 00:14:33,060 --> 00:14:31,150 always trying to make it a 358 00:14:34,980 --> 00:14:33,070 confrontational issue between me and 359 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:34,990 other scholars always trying to and you 360 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:37,630 know press the angle forward and also 361 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:40,090 they wanted to sort of like keep it 362 00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:42,130 simple not not put the stuff in that was 363 00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:43,660 really important to thee for the 364 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:45,760 evidential point of view so it was a 365 00:14:50,070 --> 00:14:47,980 tough nine months making the three part 366 00:14:51,810 --> 00:14:50,080 series but then when it was out and 367 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:51,820 finished and we had a great director who 368 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:53,410 really did a fantastic job on the 369 00:14:58,770 --> 00:14:55,330 editing and the pictures were wonderful 370 00:15:00,900 --> 00:14:58,780 for that period it was a classical BBC 371 00:15:03,630 --> 00:15:00,910 style documentary widescreen the whole 372 00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:03,640 works beautiful photography and and it 373 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:06,160 created a huge impact a massive impact 374 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:10,030 when it it came out on in the UK in 95 375 00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:11,170 actually and 376 00:15:16,199 --> 00:15:14,350 the autumn of 95 and they were shown on 377 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:16,209 Sunday evenings for three weeks 378 00:15:20,550 --> 00:15:18,370 consecutive weeks and after the first 379 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:20,560 showing on the first episode on the 380 00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:22,930 Sunday by the Wednesday of that week 381 00:15:27,689 --> 00:15:25,180 they'd completely sold out of all the 382 00:15:30,569 --> 00:15:27,699 books they had so they cleared 60,000 383 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:30,579 books in three days in the UK and that 384 00:15:33,569 --> 00:15:32,380 is an astonishing figure for the UK 385 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:33,579 because it's a relatively small 386 00:15:39,060 --> 00:15:35,769 countries you know not a huge population 387 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:39,070 and so they completely ran out of stock 388 00:15:43,290 --> 00:15:41,410 by the time before the second episode 389 00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:43,300 was being shown and they had to go and 390 00:15:46,889 --> 00:15:45,430 arrange for an emergency printing in 391 00:15:49,019 --> 00:15:46,899 Italy and have them all shipped over 392 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:49,029 from Italy by plane in order to catch 393 00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:50,170 the audience because there was such 394 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:51,820 demand for the booked it was completely 395 00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:53,110 crazy for somebody just come out of 396 00:15:57,210 --> 00:15:55,540 university and was doing a PhD as a 397 00:15:59,670 --> 00:15:57,220 student it was completely overwhelming 398 00:16:01,050 --> 00:15:59,680 to walk down you know the streets in 399 00:16:02,699 --> 00:16:01,060 London and find your book in the front 400 00:16:04,889 --> 00:16:02,709 and the front window of the main shops 401 00:16:06,269 --> 00:16:04,899 there the main bookstores and we fooled 402 00:16:08,970 --> 00:16:06,279 this sprays of your book there it was 403 00:16:10,170 --> 00:16:08,980 just really weird experience you know I 404 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:10,180 can understand that completely 405 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:12,490 um believe it or not I know that we set 406 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:14,170 this this interview up somewhat last 407 00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:15,880 minute I think it was about a week and a 408 00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:17,199 half ago you would agreed to come on the 409 00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:18,670 show 410 00:16:23,699 --> 00:16:20,769 I actually tried to find a a copy of 411 00:16:25,110 --> 00:16:23,709 Exodus Mithra history and write not only 412 00:16:27,660 --> 00:16:25,120 could I not find one in any of the 413 00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,670 bookstores all of them all the libraries 414 00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:29,440 had them booked out until well at the 415 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:32,350 end of February yeah so it's there's a 416 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:33,490 good reason for that 417 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:35,410 I mean this particular book you talked 418 00:16:38,850 --> 00:16:36,850 about that Exodus myth of history was 419 00:16:41,069 --> 00:16:38,860 actually published by the the makers of 420 00:16:43,189 --> 00:16:41,079 the film pads of evidence the Exodus if 421 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:43,199 they are the publisher of the book I 422 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:46,390 agreed it's my contribution today to the 423 00:16:51,090 --> 00:16:48,250 film as you know the movie is quite a 424 00:16:52,889 --> 00:16:51,100 lot I many quite a bit and they tend to 425 00:16:55,170 --> 00:16:52,899 use my material a lot in in the 426 00:16:56,670 --> 00:16:55,180 documentary movie so they wanted to 427 00:16:58,019 --> 00:16:56,680 publish the book and I was quite pleased 428 00:17:00,180 --> 00:16:58,029 to do that because they offered me to 429 00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:00,190 print it all in full color and that was 430 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:01,569 the first time that I'd been offered 431 00:17:06,449 --> 00:17:03,850 that I mean I I loved the production 432 00:17:08,130 --> 00:17:06,459 quality of books I I really enjoy books 433 00:17:10,919 --> 00:17:08,140 and when I see a book that's in full 434 00:17:12,510 --> 00:17:10,929 color with beautiful fine art paper lots 435 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:12,520 of illustrations I like that sort of 436 00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:14,410 thing myself so when they offered me 437 00:17:19,140 --> 00:17:16,270 this opportunity to actually publish the 438 00:17:22,620 --> 00:17:19,150 book in colour I snapped it up and so 439 00:17:24,149 --> 00:17:22,630 they were the publishers and and so they 440 00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:24,159 haven't actually got it distributed 441 00:17:27,470 --> 00:17:25,049 through the books 442 00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:27,480 damn they are online their putters of 443 00:17:31,820 --> 00:17:29,100 evidence bookstore is where they sell it 444 00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,830 and I sell it in the UK on my I've got a 445 00:17:35,779 --> 00:17:33,360 sort of warehouse full of the books and 446 00:17:37,729 --> 00:17:35,789 they're sold on Amazon UK so the place 447 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:37,739 to buy it is actually either from Amazon 448 00:17:43,460 --> 00:17:41,369 you call more Amazon UK or directly from 449 00:17:45,259 --> 00:17:43,470 the patent evidence bookstore or store 450 00:17:48,859 --> 00:17:45,269 so there those are the only places you 451 00:17:51,470 --> 00:17:48,869 can really get it and for you know for 452 00:17:54,950 --> 00:17:51,480 patterns of evidence how did that that 453 00:17:57,139 --> 00:17:54,960 project come about well it's one of 454 00:17:58,580 --> 00:17:57,149 those stories isn't it Farrah's at Kings 455 00:18:02,779 --> 00:17:58,590 game out everybody saw it in the 456 00:18:04,609 --> 00:18:02,789 nineteen late 1990s some people who were 457 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:04,619 coming up in their careers as film 458 00:18:10,129 --> 00:18:07,769 directors and movie makers or that sort 459 00:18:11,869 --> 00:18:10,139 of thing producers had seen the film 460 00:18:14,989 --> 00:18:11,879 possibly when they're in their teens or 461 00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:14,999 early twenties and when we came to to 462 00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:17,700 the you know the 2000s and into 2012 463 00:18:22,580 --> 00:18:19,980 2013 these people had matured and got 464 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:22,590 their own companies and and Tim who is 465 00:18:26,659 --> 00:18:24,210 the director Tim Mahoney is the director 466 00:18:28,639 --> 00:18:26,669 of the movie wanted to interview me he'd 467 00:18:31,430 --> 00:18:28,649 been trying to get together to make a 468 00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:31,440 film about the the route of the Exodus 469 00:18:34,999 --> 00:18:32,940 I don't know if you in Canada say route 470 00:18:36,499 --> 00:18:35,009 or route but anyway the the direction 471 00:18:38,570 --> 00:18:36,509 which the Exodus took and where the 472 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:38,580 mountain of God was the mountain the 473 00:18:43,220 --> 00:18:40,769 called Sinai in in the book of Exodus 474 00:18:44,479 --> 00:18:43,230 where it was located and so he was 475 00:18:46,220 --> 00:18:44,489 trying to do a movie about that and he 476 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:46,230 wanted to interview me and so he 477 00:18:49,789 --> 00:18:47,850 arranged to come over when I was living 478 00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:49,799 in the UK in Tunbridge Wells to 479 00:18:53,509 --> 00:18:51,059 interview me and we spent a whole day 480 00:18:56,419 --> 00:18:53,519 being I was interviewed by him just the 481 00:19:00,049 --> 00:18:56,429 two of us there in my library and it 482 00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:00,059 became the sort of the concrete form of 483 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:02,070 what the film became afterwards because 484 00:19:05,389 --> 00:19:03,330 what I was talking about to him 485 00:19:06,979 --> 00:19:05,399 impressed him so much that he wanted to 486 00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:06,989 change the direction of the movie and 487 00:19:12,109 --> 00:19:09,720 move away from the journey of the Exodus 488 00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:12,119 to whether the history of the Exodus was 489 00:19:16,759 --> 00:19:13,830 a real thing or a fiction whether it was 490 00:19:18,739 --> 00:19:16,769 fantasy or or reality which is basically 491 00:19:20,899 --> 00:19:18,749 what might where my work had gone over 492 00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:20,909 the previous years so he changed his 493 00:19:24,919 --> 00:19:23,039 direction to accommodate my theory and 494 00:19:26,899 --> 00:19:24,929 that's what patters met patterns of 495 00:19:30,019 --> 00:19:26,909 evidence became from there on so it was 496 00:19:32,629 --> 00:19:30,029 all about a young director seeing this 497 00:19:34,399 --> 00:19:32,639 material and then coming along in in his 498 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:34,409 matura years when he's got his company 499 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:35,850 set up to make this independent 500 00:19:38,990 --> 00:19:37,950 documentary which was of such quality 501 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:39,000 that 502 00:19:43,070 --> 00:19:40,650 was decided to release it on the cinema 503 00:19:44,810 --> 00:19:43,080 circuit and it was seen by millions of 504 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:44,820 people in America and especially 505 00:19:48,650 --> 00:19:46,980 showings on one night that they took it 506 00:19:51,170 --> 00:19:48,660 all around the country was being shelled 507 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:51,180 simultaneously and and from then on of 508 00:19:56,570 --> 00:19:53,490 course it's it's sold huge amounts of 509 00:19:59,570 --> 00:19:56,580 DVDs and it's now going to be made into 510 00:20:01,250 --> 00:19:59,580 a 12-part TV series so sometime next 511 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:01,260 year it will be on TV that's on some 512 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:03,210 station and it'll be an extended version 513 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:04,890 lasting something in the region of six 514 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:07,380 hours that is absolutely insane you know 515 00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:08,850 I'm definitely to be catching that when 516 00:20:11,660 --> 00:20:10,140 it comes out 517 00:20:13,250 --> 00:20:11,670 I've watched patterns of evidence 518 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:13,260 probably about three times at this point 519 00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:16,290 Oh have you excellent well for two hour 520 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:18,720 documentary it's it's it quite some 521 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:21,690 quite a robust piece of work as as 522 00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,250 they'd like to be able to say a lot of 523 00:20:26,780 --> 00:20:25,200 documentaries will last 45 minutes 524 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:26,790 because they're expecting to put it on 525 00:20:31,100 --> 00:20:29,370 let's say discovery or natural 526 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:31,110 Geographic and it's only going to be an 527 00:20:36,140 --> 00:20:32,970 hour and a lot of that is going to be 528 00:20:39,770 --> 00:20:36,150 repeated material which would cut into 529 00:20:41,690 --> 00:20:39,780 after commercials where is this exactly 530 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:41,700 there's a tendency in in documentary 531 00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:43,410 making to have one idea that just 532 00:20:48,590 --> 00:20:45,030 repeating over and over again for 50 533 00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:48,600 minutes or 45 minutes the patterns of 534 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:51,360 evidence program or film if you like is 535 00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:53,190 it's lots and lots of ideas coming 536 00:20:58,130 --> 00:20:56,070 together it's a complex storyline and it 537 00:21:00,380 --> 00:20:58,140 needs to be explained very visually 538 00:21:02,990 --> 00:21:00,390 which the film does and you can imagine 539 00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:03,000 if you then take it into a 6 hour 30 540 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:04,860 minute 12 part series or something like 541 00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:06,690 that you can go into a lot more detail 542 00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:08,580 and there this is the quality of the 543 00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:10,980 type of documentary making I think we're 544 00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:12,960 missing now in this modern world of ours 545 00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:15,120 it used to be made in the 1990s nineteen 546 00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:17,130 eighties and nineties Romer and Michael 547 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:19,080 Wood but now they're when you look at 548 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:20,490 most of these documentaries on TV 549 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:22,350 they'll grow the shallow but not really 550 00:21:26,330 --> 00:21:24,390 got the depth and quality that they used 551 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:26,340 to have in the old days so I'm you know 552 00:21:29,330 --> 00:21:27,570 be great if we could bring that back 553 00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:29,340 again I think it's one of the reasons 554 00:21:32,930 --> 00:21:30,720 why a lot of people get into let's say 555 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:32,940 magical Egypt and and have supported 556 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:34,890 that that particular work from John 557 00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:36,780 Anthony West and I don't think that's a 558 00:21:41,060 --> 00:21:39,030 plug to the the new series that is 559 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:41,070 coming out magical Egypt too in the next 560 00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:44,490 little while as well right and they're 561 00:21:50,419 --> 00:21:48,720 the the style of of doing those types of 562 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:50,429 long series whether it's a you know one 563 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:52,050 it's in a one-hour series but it's one 564 00:21:59,490 --> 00:21:52,630 particular 565 00:22:02,610 --> 00:21:59,500 idea for that as a kind of like a si 566 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:02,620 piece like a thesis so there is the one 567 00:22:07,020 --> 00:22:03,850 thesis and they they go through the 568 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:07,030 entire the entire information list on 569 00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:09,760 how to be able to prove that whereas in 570 00:22:12,420 --> 00:22:10,960 you know let's say from shows like 571 00:22:15,570 --> 00:22:12,430 ancient aliens which I you know as 572 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:15,580 entertaining as a show but it's a lot of 573 00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:18,370 suppositions to to to get to that one 574 00:22:24,330 --> 00:22:22,180 point a lot of leaps of of what's the 575 00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:24,340 term here that I'm looking for it's the 576 00:22:27,870 --> 00:22:26,320 old phrase you could it be that which is 577 00:22:29,940 --> 00:22:27,880 repeated about thirty times in the 578 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:29,950 ancient aliens program could it be the 579 00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:31,930 ex could it be that why it's always that 580 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:34,420 it's always questions not facts and 581 00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:36,010 that's half of a problem with it no in 582 00:22:40,290 --> 00:22:38,230 asking questions isn't necessarily a bad 583 00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:40,300 thing because no but at the same time 584 00:22:45,410 --> 00:22:42,310 when it's using questions to have a leap 585 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:45,420 of logic as or towards a certain answer 586 00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:47,290 that that's where you can kind of lead 587 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:50,590 into a I'd say not necessarily darker 588 00:22:55,770 --> 00:22:53,890 path but more of a misinformation path 589 00:22:57,690 --> 00:22:55,780 and I'm not saying one way or another 590 00:22:59,730 --> 00:22:57,700 whether they do that because I think 591 00:23:01,230 --> 00:22:59,740 that you know Georgie OSA is a great 592 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:01,240 fantastic guy and so is the rest of the 593 00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:03,910 cast and we've had some of the the 594 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:05,140 people who've appeared on the show on 595 00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:08,290 this show as well so uh you know for me 596 00:23:11,550 --> 00:23:09,550 it's a matter and especially with this 597 00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:11,560 show it's a matter it the purpose of the 598 00:23:14,730 --> 00:23:13,240 show is to try and get to the truth or 599 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:14,740 at least try and dig up as much 600 00:23:18,930 --> 00:23:16,330 information towards getting to the truth 601 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:18,940 and and towards that end having you on 602 00:23:23,310 --> 00:23:20,890 is you know one another cornerstone that 603 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:23,320 we have to to dig into that information 604 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:26,170 and you know I recently watched your 605 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:28,450 your series on or not the series weather 606 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:30,250 but the documentary on finding the 607 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:30,970 Garden of Eden 608 00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:33,250 alright and I thought that that was 609 00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:34,960 absolutely fantastic with regards to 610 00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:37,060 trying to find the location and using 611 00:23:42,870 --> 00:23:40,960 comparative linguistics to say okay well 612 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:42,880 this river is supposed to be named this 613 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:44,890 and this time just on the way that it 614 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:46,720 was shown and it reminded me a lot of 615 00:23:50,490 --> 00:23:48,250 layered Scranton's work where he 616 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:50,500 compares let's say work from the the 617 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:54,250 language of the Dogon to old Egyptian to 618 00:24:00,510 --> 00:23:56,770 try and find a comparative 619 00:24:03,690 --> 00:24:00,520 you know base-2 to try and grow the the 620 00:24:07,650 --> 00:24:03,700 idea of where this culture came from so 621 00:24:10,950 --> 00:24:07,660 how how did you get the idea for the the 622 00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:10,960 the evening story well it it it was up 623 00:24:15,390 --> 00:24:12,820 it was an opera progression on from 624 00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:15,400 doing Pharisee Kings Pharisee Kings with 625 00:24:19,050 --> 00:24:16,960 the name of the book in the States but 626 00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:19,060 in in the UK was called a test of time 627 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:22,270 and it dealt with the historical period 628 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:24,310 of Egyptian history and what we would 629 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:26,710 call the Old Testament the thing I 630 00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:28,750 didn't go into in that particular book 631 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:30,700 was the storage in the book of Genesis 632 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:33,010 which comes obviously before the 633 00:24:37,020 --> 00:24:34,330 historical part of the so called 634 00:24:39,810 --> 00:24:37,030 historical part of the Bible and the 635 00:24:41,100 --> 00:24:39,820 Genesis narratives are very mysterious I 636 00:24:43,590 --> 00:24:41,110 mean they're a collection of stories 637 00:24:45,660 --> 00:24:43,600 that are almost fantastical in many 638 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:45,670 respects and including these astonishing 639 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:47,710 ages at some of these patriarchs have 640 00:24:51,870 --> 00:24:49,450 you know 900 years old for the 641 00:24:53,670 --> 00:24:51,880 Methuselah etc and so people regard them 642 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:53,680 as fairy stories a nice understandable 643 00:24:57,690 --> 00:24:55,810 why they do that but they probably 644 00:24:59,810 --> 00:24:57,700 derived from a series of legends that 645 00:25:02,910 --> 00:24:59,820 come out of ancient Mesopotamia 646 00:25:04,590 --> 00:25:02,920 particularly collated together by in the 647 00:25:06,570 --> 00:25:04,600 term of Hammurabi that came of king of 648 00:25:08,730 --> 00:25:06,580 Babylon one the first entity of Babylon 649 00:25:10,770 --> 00:25:08,740 who had a great library and he brought 650 00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:10,780 together all these ancient traditions 651 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:12,940 and put them onto tablets and they were 652 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:14,650 then dispersed around the civilized 653 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:16,660 world so people could who were literate 654 00:25:20,190 --> 00:25:18,730 could read those stories and some of 655 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:20,200 them must have got to Egypt of course in 656 00:25:26,790 --> 00:25:23,170 places like that so they have origins in 657 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:26,800 these foundational legends of 658 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:28,810 Mesopotamia and I thought to myself well 659 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:31,570 these Genesis stories seem to be derived 660 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:34,510 from that material and although we would 661 00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:36,610 we don't necessarily believe that an 662 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:38,470 Adam and Eve were the first human beings 663 00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:41,830 on the planet etc etc but there must 664 00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:44,620 have been an origin of these people who 665 00:25:48,660 --> 00:25:46,150 lived in Mesopotamia where they had 666 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:48,670 originated from what their legendary 667 00:25:52,590 --> 00:25:50,530 stories were and the geography of those 668 00:25:54,630 --> 00:25:52,600 stories and the first thing you'd notice 669 00:25:57,060 --> 00:25:54,640 in there in the story of Genesis I 670 00:25:59,370 --> 00:25:57,070 thinks in chapter 2 is there is actually 671 00:26:01,020 --> 00:25:59,380 a location for the Garden of Eden and 672 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:01,030 the land of eat and it's actually given 673 00:26:05,010 --> 00:26:03,370 there in cold hard black-and-white it's 674 00:26:07,650 --> 00:26:05,020 no there's no fantasy and it there's no 675 00:26:09,940 --> 00:26:07,660 American miraculous explanations it's 676 00:26:11,830 --> 00:26:09,950 just simply the place where four rivers 677 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:11,840 had their headwaters and that's where 678 00:26:15,700 --> 00:26:14,090 Eden was and two of those rivers are 679 00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,710 very well no mames the Euphrates the 680 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:16,880 other was the tiger if so we thought 681 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:18,590 well we know where their sources are we 682 00:26:23,140 --> 00:26:21,350 know where they're those rivers begin so 683 00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:23,150 if we just simply trace our way back to 684 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:24,800 the business sources of the Euphrates 685 00:26:28,420 --> 00:26:26,330 and Tigris we'll be in the land of Eden 686 00:26:30,580 --> 00:26:28,430 which is what I did I went and got into 687 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:30,590 a four-wheel-drive vehicle and in the 688 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:33,500 southern Iran along in the Mesopotamian 689 00:26:37,570 --> 00:26:35,450 plain there part of Iran is in the 690 00:26:39,430 --> 00:26:37,580 actual Mesopotamian plain and we drove 691 00:26:41,590 --> 00:26:39,440 up through the Zagros Mountains all the 692 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:41,600 way up through the seven gates of 693 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:44,570 so-called paradise which are mountain 694 00:26:49,750 --> 00:26:47,090 passes and ended up in the Land of Eden 695 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:49,760 and everything that's described in the 696 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:51,650 book of Genesis Vidan is there in the 697 00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:53,450 topography the landscape and it was just 698 00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:55,760 very obvious once once you got there and 699 00:27:00,400 --> 00:26:58,130 then we began to realize that this was 700 00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:00,410 the very place that human civilization 701 00:27:05,950 --> 00:27:02,990 began where the first pottery was made 702 00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:05,960 where the first wine was made the first 703 00:27:10,180 --> 00:27:08,180 viniculture was there the first drawing 704 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:10,190 of grain crops the first domestication 705 00:27:15,010 --> 00:27:12,530 of animals all those things occurred in 706 00:27:17,710 --> 00:27:15,020 that region and so the genesis story is 707 00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:17,720 telling you about the the rise of 708 00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:19,640 civilization now to hunter-gatherer 709 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:22,310 society into sedentary farming 710 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:24,230 communities and herding communities 711 00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:26,330 pastoralists and that is the story you 712 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:29,120 can enable and the farmer versus the the 713 00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:30,770 pastor list of the shepherd and the 714 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:33,230 conflict between those two individuals 715 00:27:37,060 --> 00:27:34,730 which is actually a conflict of 716 00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:37,070 civilizations between city dwellers and 717 00:27:41,140 --> 00:27:39,470 farmers sedentary folk and pastoralists 718 00:27:43,900 --> 00:27:41,150 who wander through the landscape that 719 00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:43,910 has been the perennial problem in that 720 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:45,830 region of conflict between pastoralists 721 00:27:50,770 --> 00:27:47,930 and agriculturists for the past like 722 00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:50,780 twenty thousand years so you know that's 723 00:27:54,370 --> 00:27:52,430 that's where it all began and that's 724 00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,380 where the Genesis story was molded in 725 00:27:58,690 --> 00:27:56,480 that area now what do you think your 726 00:28:01,180 --> 00:27:58,700 opinion is or I should say what is your 727 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:01,190 opinion and how do you think of the 728 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:03,650 Genesis story being kind of not 729 00:28:07,330 --> 00:28:05,570 necessarily rehashed but retold and 730 00:28:09,670 --> 00:28:07,340 carried forth through so many faiths 731 00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:09,680 through thee through the centuries from 732 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:12,200 my understanding you know Sumerian 733 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:14,210 culture can be traced back up to 4000 BC 734 00:28:19,540 --> 00:28:17,330 or 6,000 years ago or older and yeah 735 00:28:21,919 --> 00:28:19,550 oldest Lila so a little build up so the 736 00:28:24,259 --> 00:28:21,929 the the history is 737 00:28:25,999 --> 00:28:24,269 you know very very similar stories have 738 00:28:28,149 --> 00:28:26,009 been told throughout whether it's the 739 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:28,159 the Genesis story the story of Noah or 740 00:28:32,350 --> 00:28:30,330 let's say the Exodus there there have 741 00:28:34,940 --> 00:28:32,360 been some similarities between them 742 00:28:37,460 --> 00:28:34,950 although from the exodus standpoint I 743 00:28:39,649 --> 00:28:37,470 can understand that in that part of the 744 00:28:41,450 --> 00:28:39,659 world in that day and age a similar 745 00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:41,460 story with so many people moving around 746 00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:43,049 probably could have been told more often 747 00:28:47,509 --> 00:28:45,480 than not just based on the way 748 00:28:50,659 --> 00:28:47,519 civilization worked at that time now 749 00:28:54,649 --> 00:28:50,669 yeah I know that you you've discussed an 750 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:54,659 anachronism quite often in your work how 751 00:29:01,489 --> 00:28:57,690 of the adequate isms shifted between the 752 00:29:03,139 --> 00:29:01,499 old stories Samaria to the new stories 753 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:03,149 that have been or the numerous stories 754 00:29:06,859 --> 00:29:05,490 that came out in let's say the Torah or 755 00:29:09,730 --> 00:29:06,869 the Old Testament and in the New 756 00:29:12,619 --> 00:29:09,740 Testament well I'm of the view that 757 00:29:14,930 --> 00:29:12,629 there is a key to this whole business 758 00:29:17,539 --> 00:29:14,940 and that is the fact that the so called 759 00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:17,549 authorship of the book of Genesis the so 760 00:29:21,609 --> 00:29:19,440 called ocean of authorship of the first 761 00:29:24,919 --> 00:29:21,619 five books of the Bible of Torah is 762 00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,929 attributed to Moses the Prince of Egypt 763 00:29:29,570 --> 00:29:27,360 who is undoubtedly an educated man 764 00:29:31,009 --> 00:29:29,580 there's no doubt about that although the 765 00:29:32,299 --> 00:29:31,019 story of him being plucked out of the 766 00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:32,309 river by the princess we don't know 767 00:29:36,109 --> 00:29:34,049 whether that's true or not it seems 768 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:36,119 pretty clear that if a Moses character 769 00:29:40,999 --> 00:29:38,970 did exist that he was literate that he 770 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:41,009 was educated within the palace system in 771 00:29:44,629 --> 00:29:42,570 Egypt and therefore he would have had 772 00:29:46,399 --> 00:29:44,639 access to the literature we've just been 773 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:46,409 talking about the the tablets from 774 00:29:51,739 --> 00:29:49,710 Hammurabi's a library in Babylon 1 775 00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:51,749 that's the era when my new chronology 776 00:29:56,239 --> 00:29:53,580 puts Moses in that particular time 777 00:29:57,799 --> 00:29:56,249 period and so he would have known these 778 00:30:00,379 --> 00:29:57,809 this material by reading it or being 779 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:00,389 even been told about your vice tutors so 780 00:30:03,739 --> 00:30:02,369 when he then is thrown out of Egypt and 781 00:30:07,999 --> 00:30:03,749 goes into exile and then comes back 782 00:30:10,909 --> 00:30:08,009 later to to give his slave population 783 00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:10,919 people his his um his kindred spirits 784 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:13,529 they're his brethren their foundational 785 00:30:18,289 --> 00:30:16,200 stories he has to create a nation out of 786 00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:18,299 these bunch of slaves have lost all 787 00:30:22,039 --> 00:30:20,190 knowledge and understanding of their 788 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:22,049 past it because they've been into 789 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:23,970 slavery for you know quite some time and 790 00:30:29,299 --> 00:30:26,730 so what he gives them is the knowledge 791 00:30:31,669 --> 00:30:29,309 that he's read and accumulated from his 792 00:30:33,769 --> 00:30:31,679 time as a prince of egypt a learning 793 00:30:35,790 --> 00:30:33,779 about mesopotamia about the ancient 794 00:30:38,910 --> 00:30:35,800 legends and he molds it in 795 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:38,920 to a story that we call Genesis Bereshit 796 00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:41,530 in the in the Hebrew and that gives 797 00:30:46,890 --> 00:30:43,720 these people their foundation there 798 00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:46,900 they're something to be that grows into 799 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:49,120 nationhood without that if they have no 800 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:51,010 origins they don't have a nation and 801 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:53,050 that's Moses great skill is to turn this 802 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:55,210 bunch of Hebrews this bunch of 803 00:30:59,520 --> 00:30:57,010 Israelites living in slavery in Egypt 804 00:31:01,770 --> 00:30:59,530 into a nation and he does that by giving 805 00:31:03,870 --> 00:31:01,780 him a past that's what he does so 806 00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:03,880 there's a mechanism there that explains 807 00:31:08,430 --> 00:31:06,220 how it gets into the into the Torah into 808 00:31:10,650 --> 00:31:08,440 the into the Old Testament but the 809 00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:10,660 ledges themselves were disparate legends 810 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:12,910 on different tablets recorded and in 811 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:14,890 some of the Babylon one and they would 812 00:31:19,020 --> 00:31:16,810 some of them go back much earlier into 813 00:31:21,930 --> 00:31:19,030 the time of Sumer the very beginnings of 814 00:31:23,690 --> 00:31:21,940 of Mesopotamian civilization so it's 815 00:31:26,250 --> 00:31:23,700 it's too full process first of all 816 00:31:28,260 --> 00:31:26,260 Hammurabi collects together all this 817 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:28,270 material that's been going been written 818 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:31,090 for several thousand years and he brings 819 00:31:34,860 --> 00:31:33,070 it all together and he puts it in one 820 00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:34,870 place like a publisher and then there 821 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:36,190 other people have access to it like 822 00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,230 Moses and he then gives that to his 823 00:31:43,140 --> 00:31:40,720 people to create a foundational story 824 00:31:45,660 --> 00:31:43,150 for the Israelites now the interesting 825 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:45,670 thing that I've seen and I know with 826 00:31:51,090 --> 00:31:49,050 with the chronology being different from 827 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:51,100 some of those that are out there and I 828 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:52,690 know that there was a lot of a lot of 829 00:31:55,530 --> 00:31:54,190 theories there's more theories in Egypt 830 00:31:59,340 --> 00:31:55,540 than there are grains of sands in Egypt 831 00:32:01,800 --> 00:31:59,350 as they as one person true and I know 832 00:32:03,390 --> 00:32:01,810 that a good friend of mine in front of 833 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:03,400 the show Scottie Roberts Scottie how you 834 00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:05,110 doing I know you know if you're doing at 835 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:07,180 home fantastic I said I'd give you a 836 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:08,490 shout out and I hope you're doing well 837 00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:11,290 now Scottie Roberts once wrapped my 838 00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:13,900 hands on air because I had questions not 839 00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:16,990 necessarily wrapped but corrected me 840 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:20,110 when I had mentioned the Akhenaten is 841 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:24,490 Moses theory do you want to put your 842 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:29,730 hand out now it's it's kind of a 843 00:32:33,030 --> 00:32:31,690 tradition on the show that I will get 844 00:32:34,170 --> 00:32:33,040 corrected at least once so I'm just 845 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:34,180 putting that out there to get it out of 846 00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:36,370 the way so if you'd like to correct that 847 00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:38,710 before we go any forward that before we 848 00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:39,700 go any further that would be much 849 00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:42,340 appreciated it's it's an old it's an old 850 00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:44,350 story and it's an obvious one isn't it 851 00:32:47,910 --> 00:32:46,180 that you've got a you've got the first 852 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:47,920 monotheists in history so-called 853 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:49,570 Akhenaten in Egypt 854 00:32:52,410 --> 00:32:50,290 and then you've got the first 855 00:32:54,150 --> 00:32:52,420 monotheists in the Bible which is Moses 856 00:32:56,070 --> 00:32:54,160 so you're bound to want to stick the two 857 00:32:58,050 --> 00:32:56,080 of them together but I mean that's not 858 00:33:00,660 --> 00:32:58,060 really a basis for for actually making 859 00:33:02,130 --> 00:33:00,670 them contemporary and historically 860 00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:02,140 speaking they don't match in any way 861 00:33:08,550 --> 00:33:04,380 shape or form are con artists a king 862 00:33:11,610 --> 00:33:08,560 Arkin Alton builds a city he's a ruler 863 00:33:13,620 --> 00:33:11,620 Moses was never a king he was I know so 864 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:13,630 you can't really equate the two thus 865 00:33:18,710 --> 00:33:15,730 that it's this whole sort of story of 866 00:33:21,420 --> 00:33:18,720 the idea that his grandparents were 867 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:21,430 Hebrews and and your yearn to you were 868 00:33:26,970 --> 00:33:24,690 talking about now and that yo-yo was 869 00:33:29,250 --> 00:33:26,980 Joseph and all that stuff none of it 870 00:33:31,650 --> 00:33:29,260 fits together at all it's the wrong time 871 00:33:35,010 --> 00:33:31,660 period be the figures themselves the 872 00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:35,020 historical figures don't match see our 873 00:33:39,540 --> 00:33:36,880 cannot has got a tomb in Egypt mozi was 874 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:39,550 buried on Mount Nebo in in Jordan none 875 00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:41,530 of the stories really fit together if 876 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:43,030 they do they're on a very superficial 877 00:33:48,450 --> 00:33:46,930 level so that's poor history - for me 878 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:48,460 that doesn't that's not history which 879 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:50,170 melts together and joins together in a 880 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:52,330 way that's satisfactory and it's just a 881 00:33:56,130 --> 00:33:53,890 rather simplistic idea that's been 882 00:33:58,350 --> 00:33:56,140 latched upon I have to monotheists let's 883 00:34:00,540 --> 00:33:58,360 let's make them the same person it's 884 00:34:03,390 --> 00:34:00,550 much more interesting to place our 885 00:34:05,850 --> 00:34:03,400 Connaughton and his religion his his 886 00:34:08,370 --> 00:34:05,860 faith into a different era and if you 887 00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:08,380 put him into the time of the davidic 888 00:34:13,740 --> 00:34:11,140 period the time of David in in history 889 00:34:16,410 --> 00:34:13,750 or in the Bible then you do see 890 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:16,420 parallels between Davidic forms of 891 00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:20,170 monotheism the Yahweh ISM and also what 892 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:21,430 we see in our con artists 893 00:34:26,340 --> 00:34:24,010 for instance Psalm 104 supposedly 894 00:34:28,020 --> 00:34:26,350 written by David it's a dead ringer for 895 00:34:29,940 --> 00:34:28,030 the hymn to the Sun written by Akhenaten 896 00:34:32,610 --> 00:34:29,950 they're almost identical in terms of the 897 00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:32,620 imagery they both create the fact that 898 00:34:37,470 --> 00:34:35,500 solar worship that in the terms of our 899 00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:37,480 cannot in is to do with the light of the 900 00:34:42,810 --> 00:34:40,630 Sun and in the David period Yahweh is 901 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:42,820 the light he's the light lighting up the 902 00:34:46,830 --> 00:34:44,770 Holy of Holies he's the light of 903 00:34:49,350 --> 00:34:46,840 knowledge and understanding and wisdom 904 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:49,360 and so they are there are parallels 905 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:52,170 between those concepts the philosophical 906 00:34:58,050 --> 00:34:55,090 concepts nothing to do with mosaic 907 00:35:01,320 --> 00:34:58,060 yahwism it's a very different model 908 00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:01,330 entirely so our kanata fits much better 909 00:35:03,570 --> 00:35:03,250 into the davidic period than he does 910 00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:03,580 into 911 00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:06,520 the mosaic period okay well thank you 912 00:35:09,240 --> 00:35:07,780 very much for clearing that up I and 913 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:09,250 this is the second time we're have had 914 00:35:12,150 --> 00:35:10,810 that confirmed so unfortunately 915 00:35:14,490 --> 00:35:12,160 listeners if you're expecting in 916 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:14,500 akhenaten is Moses the show at some 917 00:35:20,550 --> 00:35:15,850 point you're probably not going to get 918 00:35:22,290 --> 00:35:20,560 it Ahmed Osman on he'll do that for you 919 00:35:24,030 --> 00:35:22,300 oh well you know it's it's a possibility 920 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:24,040 might be entertaining but from from a 921 00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:26,110 from a truth standpoint we we have a 922 00:35:30,810 --> 00:35:28,990 fairly high level of of searching for 923 00:35:34,110 --> 00:35:30,820 truth as it were and it's you know part 924 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:34,120 of my Masonic kind of leanings as it 925 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:35,890 were to to try and at least find light 926 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:37,810 and that's kind of a theory that I found 927 00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:40,570 is is prevalent within most most faiths 928 00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:44,350 or most followings as it were of this 929 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:46,720 just remember just remember that truth 930 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:49,210 is relative truth is always being 931 00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:52,570 relative true enough it's you know you 932 00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:54,790 see your side my side and the truth as 933 00:35:59,700 --> 00:35:56,980 it were so even that even your side or 934 00:36:01,320 --> 00:35:59,710 my side might not necessarily be what is 935 00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:01,330 but at the same time trying to be able 936 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:03,280 to to discuss between two individuals 937 00:36:08,190 --> 00:36:05,650 whether it is a scholar and a radio host 938 00:36:11,130 --> 00:36:08,200 or two Egyptologists out in the field 939 00:36:13,170 --> 00:36:11,140 the idea is to try and get that dialogue 940 00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:13,180 going so the continuation of that 941 00:36:16,980 --> 00:36:14,320 knowledge in that expansion of that 942 00:36:19,980 --> 00:36:16,990 knowledge can can be achieved and that's 943 00:36:22,350 --> 00:36:19,990 true with yeah history is the thing 944 00:36:24,110 --> 00:36:22,360 isn't it if we're not historical truth 945 00:36:25,650 --> 00:36:24,120 aren't rather than natural truth 946 00:36:28,830 --> 00:36:25,660 historical truth all about 947 00:36:30,930 --> 00:36:28,840 interpretation I mean the facts are the 948 00:36:34,050 --> 00:36:30,940 archaeology in the ground the texts and 949 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:34,060 the ancient documents and the monuments 950 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:36,250 and and the ruins that and there and the 951 00:36:40,710 --> 00:36:37,810 bones of the people who died in the past 952 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:40,720 the past is what happened history is 953 00:36:45,210 --> 00:36:42,730 only really our best best guess at what 954 00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:45,220 happened and how you decide what's a 955 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:46,870 good history what's about history is 956 00:36:51,450 --> 00:36:49,210 when you eliminate as many of the 957 00:36:52,590 --> 00:36:51,460 anomalies that occur in the development 958 00:36:54,810 --> 00:36:52,600 of your history if you have a history 959 00:36:56,670 --> 00:36:54,820 full of anomalies that don't seem to fit 960 00:36:59,190 --> 00:36:56,680 properly then that's not a good history 961 00:37:01,110 --> 00:36:59,200 if you have a history that you've really 962 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:01,120 gone into good detail you've found as 963 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:02,890 many matches as possible and you've got 964 00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:04,690 eliminated most of the anomalies then 965 00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:06,700 that's a better history so if you look 966 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:09,310 at history books written 150 years ago 967 00:37:13,470 --> 00:37:10,930 they're full of holes they've got 968 00:37:15,690 --> 00:37:13,480 problems and then you get unto more more 969 00:37:17,310 --> 00:37:15,700 to contemporary times like now you tend 970 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:17,320 to have eliminated many of those 971 00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:19,330 therefore you get better history so the 972 00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:21,310 old adage is if you're sitting in your 973 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:24,610 tutors library office at University and 974 00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:26,050 on one side you have a whole row of 975 00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:28,300 books on archaeology on the other side 976 00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:29,590 you have a whole row of books of history 977 00:37:33,630 --> 00:37:31,870 the books that are valuable to you are 978 00:37:34,950 --> 00:37:33,640 the ones the archaeology books not the 979 00:37:38,070 --> 00:37:34,960 history books because the history books 980 00:37:39,330 --> 00:37:38,080 change every 20 or 30 years people write 981 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:39,340 new history books and they're different 982 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:40,690 to the ones that were from their 983 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:44,170 previous generations now I know that 984 00:37:48,060 --> 00:37:46,570 with Michael W who's joining us in 985 00:37:49,710 --> 00:37:48,070 YouTube chat hey Michael how are you 986 00:37:54,750 --> 00:37:49,720 doing thanks for listening 987 00:37:56,610 --> 00:37:54,760 he is asking regarding the the image 988 00:37:59,310 --> 00:37:56,620 debris of Moses and how it's changed 989 00:38:01,530 --> 00:37:59,320 over the time now certain people may 990 00:38:04,980 --> 00:38:01,540 have have represented as him being the 991 00:38:07,740 --> 00:38:04,990 devil or Lucifer but the or they've 992 00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:07,750 interpreted that way but what what is 993 00:38:14,010 --> 00:38:10,990 the source of that what is the source of 994 00:38:16,260 --> 00:38:14,020 that that imagery I'm not sure whether 995 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:16,270 I've even heard of it I mean as far as 996 00:38:20,070 --> 00:38:18,610 I'm concerned Moses the figure that you 997 00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:20,080 were hear about in the Bible which is 998 00:38:23,430 --> 00:38:21,550 the only place we have a source for him 999 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:23,440 I mean where else do we find material on 1000 00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:27,610 Moses paints him as a figure who first 1001 00:38:31,950 --> 00:38:29,730 of all is extremely fortunate to be 1002 00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:31,960 introduced into the royal family of 1003 00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:34,060 Egypt he commits a murder so he's a 1004 00:38:41,310 --> 00:38:37,440 murderer when he beats there the 1005 00:38:43,710 --> 00:38:41,320 egyptian supervisor over the head and 1006 00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:43,720 has to flee away into sinai wherever he 1007 00:38:47,940 --> 00:38:45,460 is in the wilderness that he goes to and 1008 00:38:50,130 --> 00:38:47,950 he comes back a reformed man and then 1009 00:38:51,810 --> 00:38:50,140 he's this remarkable figure who is able 1010 00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:51,820 charismatic figure who's able to take 1011 00:38:56,190 --> 00:38:54,340 these slaves out of Egypt and take them 1012 00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:56,200 to their so-called Promised Land even 1013 00:38:59,370 --> 00:38:57,760 though he's not particularly articulate 1014 00:39:02,130 --> 00:38:59,380 apparently he has to get his brother to 1015 00:39:05,370 --> 00:39:02,140 speak to the people because he's slow of 1016 00:39:07,770 --> 00:39:05,380 speech whatever that means so I don't 1017 00:39:09,570 --> 00:39:07,780 I've not heard anybody say or I've not 1018 00:39:12,750 --> 00:39:09,580 seen any writing to say that he's 1019 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:12,760 equated with a sort of Beelzebub demonic 1020 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:14,710 figure as far as I'm aware but does that 1021 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:16,570 come from what literature does that come 1022 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:19,090 from apparently it's on it's on Google 1023 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:21,610 and I'm trying to find a image of it so 1024 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:24,490 I can show it but I'm not I'm not oh I 1025 00:39:28,830 --> 00:39:26,410 know what we're talking about now we're 1026 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:28,840 talking about the Leonardo statue aren't 1027 00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:31,210 we in Rome with the two horn 1028 00:39:35,099 --> 00:39:33,250 coming out of the top of his head is 1029 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:35,109 that what we're talking about must be I 1030 00:39:39,329 --> 00:39:37,570 offered my guest yeah there's a marble 1031 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:39,339 statue one of the churches in Rome of 1032 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:41,050 Moses it's a wonderful beautiful statue 1033 00:39:45,630 --> 00:39:43,210 and he does have two horns growing out 1034 00:39:47,490 --> 00:39:45,640 of the top of his head i I did remember 1035 00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:47,500 I do remember reading about that once 1036 00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:49,089 and what it's supposed to represent but 1037 00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:50,560 it's gone completely out of my mind know 1038 00:39:54,450 --> 00:39:52,270 what it is but I don't think it's 1039 00:39:57,060 --> 00:39:54,460 anything to do with demonism as far as I 1040 00:39:59,310 --> 00:39:57,070 understand any more than saying for 1041 00:40:01,620 --> 00:39:59,320 instance that the zul qarnain in the 1042 00:40:02,609 --> 00:40:01,630 Koran is supposed to be Alexander the 1043 00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:02,619 Great 1044 00:40:07,859 --> 00:40:04,630 he's got two horns simply because he 1045 00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:07,869 wore the the helmet with ram's horns of 1046 00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:09,820 Zeus Amon because when he went to Egypt 1047 00:40:13,859 --> 00:40:11,680 to see what Oh a sees he was declared 1048 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:13,869 the son of Zeus Haman and I'm one of 1049 00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:15,730 course is the RAM headed Egyptian God so 1050 00:40:19,140 --> 00:40:18,070 on the coins of Alexander you found in 1051 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:19,150 Arabia in Persia 1052 00:40:23,220 --> 00:40:20,890 he's got horned so on the side of his 1053 00:40:24,750 --> 00:40:23,230 head and and he and becomes in the Koran 1054 00:40:26,849 --> 00:40:24,760 the zul qarnain which means the two 1055 00:40:28,140 --> 00:40:26,859 horned one so you know whether or not 1056 00:40:29,550 --> 00:40:28,150 you could say just because somebody's 1057 00:40:31,109 --> 00:40:29,560 got horns on the head it means that a 1058 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:31,119 demonic person it's another matter I 1059 00:40:35,070 --> 00:40:32,890 don't think that's the case well keep in 1060 00:40:37,470 --> 00:40:35,080 mind I'm also i I'm a 32nd degree 1061 00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,480 freemason and to our listeners I'm the 1062 00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:39,280 most of den of lore to other people on 1063 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:41,200 let's say the conspiracy Board of 1064 00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:43,330 reddit.com I'm considered a part of the 1065 00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:48,910 Illuminati so so you know it's like I'm 1066 00:40:54,750 --> 00:40:53,200 looking at the picture of of the from 1067 00:40:56,970 --> 00:40:54,760 Leonardo right now and I just see this 1068 00:40:58,380 --> 00:40:56,980 being part of his hair that could be a 1069 00:41:00,750 --> 00:40:58,390 design style choice and as a designer 1070 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:00,760 you know we as designers do crazy things 1071 00:41:05,070 --> 00:41:03,490 sometimes I think they are I think they 1072 00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:05,080 are horns but I think we have to find 1073 00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:07,990 out what the idea that Leonardo had they 1074 00:41:12,510 --> 00:41:09,730 do represent something specific but I 1075 00:41:14,579 --> 00:41:12,520 don't think it's demonic maybe you could 1076 00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:14,589 google the actual meaning of that at 1077 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:15,760 some point during our three hours 1078 00:41:19,770 --> 00:41:18,250 tonight but yeah I mean I'm sure it has 1079 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:19,780 something they are supposed to be horns 1080 00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:21,490 but there's a reason they're there and 1081 00:41:23,370 --> 00:41:22,720 I'm not entirely sure it's to do with 1082 00:41:26,010 --> 00:41:23,380 demonism 1083 00:41:27,150 --> 00:41:26,020 I don't think so but I know just keep 1084 00:41:28,620 --> 00:41:27,160 going while we're talking maybe you'll 1085 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:28,630 find something or maybe one of your 1086 00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:29,710 listeners be able to find something 1087 00:41:32,609 --> 00:41:31,119 right now you'd said to Google and I do 1088 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:32,619 apologize I was I was responding to 1089 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:35,290 Michael in the chat here but but yeah to 1090 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:38,650 Google which to Google the reasons why 1091 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:40,210 the horns are represented on the statue 1092 00:41:45,060 --> 00:41:43,450 I mean I'm sure I've read that so myself 1093 00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:45,070 I'm think he will be there on some 1094 00:41:51,150 --> 00:41:49,390 on Google I guess now to be able to move 1095 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:51,160 on while I'm googling this and normally 1096 00:41:53,670 --> 00:41:51,910 I yeah sure 1097 00:41:55,980 --> 00:41:53,680 normally I'd have Alex do this but Alex 1098 00:41:57,240 --> 00:41:55,990 you are in Costa Rica you just got 1099 00:41:58,800 --> 00:41:57,250 married so you're the luckiest man in 1100 00:42:04,320 --> 00:41:58,810 the world and your life just ended so 1101 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:04,330 well see now I've been bugging him about 1102 00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:05,410 it for the last while I'm jealous 1103 00:42:08,730 --> 00:42:07,150 because he's somewhere that's 45 degrees 1104 00:42:13,740 --> 00:42:08,740 centigrade right now when we're still it 1105 00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:13,750 like +5 with rain and snow now how was 1106 00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:15,910 your be able to get into the the new 1107 00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:18,310 chronology of Egypt and I I know that 1108 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:21,190 we've I'm a big proponent of at least 1109 00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:23,050 looking at the evidence and looking at 1110 00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:24,640 the evidence for what it is so any 1111 00:42:29,970 --> 00:42:27,790 theories open as at least as far as that 1112 00:42:31,170 --> 00:42:29,980 I can see until the research proves 1113 00:42:33,210 --> 00:42:31,180 otherwise and at least as far as 1114 00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:33,220 considerations concerned yours has been 1115 00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:37,110 of the most compelling Egypt logical 1116 00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:40,030 theories that I've seen since since the 1117 00:42:45,810 --> 00:42:42,400 water erosion on the Sphinx the theory 1118 00:42:48,780 --> 00:42:45,820 from the early in 1999 or I should say 1119 00:42:50,910 --> 00:42:48,790 at the early 1990s from dr. Raja can 1120 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:50,920 join Anthony West no we'll come back to 1121 00:42:53,460 --> 00:42:52,090 that later because I'd like to comment 1122 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:53,470 on that later like that's all right Oh 1123 00:42:57,690 --> 00:42:55,330 we'd love to have the discussion on it 1124 00:42:59,220 --> 00:42:57,700 now I wish that that dr. Schaack were 1125 00:43:00,140 --> 00:42:59,230 here he's currently traveling in Egypt 1126 00:43:02,940 --> 00:43:00,150 at the moment 1127 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:02,950 but yeah let's let's get into that later 1128 00:43:08,130 --> 00:43:05,410 on to be able to start on that 1129 00:43:09,030 --> 00:43:08,140 how did Vieth like how did you first 1130 00:43:12,090 --> 00:43:09,040 come up with the theory 1131 00:43:14,820 --> 00:43:12,100 what was the basis of it okay well I 1132 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:14,830 told you that my PhD thesis was called 1133 00:43:18,570 --> 00:43:16,210 the third intermediate period in Egypt 1134 00:43:20,190 --> 00:43:18,580 or the chronology of and that's a 1135 00:43:22,430 --> 00:43:20,200 subject that very few people want to 1136 00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:22,440 tackle there are very few specialists in 1137 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:25,510 Egyptology that deal with the 32 MIDI 1138 00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:27,130 protein chip for your listeners that's 1139 00:43:31,710 --> 00:43:29,440 the period from the 21st in asti to the 1140 00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:31,720 25th dynasty so it's immediately after 1141 00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:33,430 the New Kingdom the time of Rama Sita 1142 00:43:38,250 --> 00:43:35,680 second Rama seized the third those great 1143 00:43:40,140 --> 00:43:38,260 kings and then Egypt falls into a sort 1144 00:43:42,210 --> 00:43:40,150 of Dark Age period it's not a complete 1145 00:43:44,150 --> 00:43:42,220 Dark Age but it's a it's a time when 1146 00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:44,160 their power and their international 1147 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:47,710 reach has reduced dramatically and then 1148 00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:50,290 it revives again in the 26th dynasty and 1149 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:52,210 we get the sort of say I to period or 1150 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:54,130 late period coming along and then you 1151 00:43:57,630 --> 00:43:56,050 get the Persians and the Greeks and the 1152 00:43:59,579 --> 00:43:57,640 Romans etc but 1153 00:44:01,980 --> 00:43:59,589 they collapse of the New Kingdom it's 1154 00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:01,990 really the point at which age it really 1155 00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:04,089 is no longer the great empire that it 1156 00:44:09,059 --> 00:44:05,920 used to be and so we fall into this 1157 00:44:10,589 --> 00:44:09,069 quagmire of data of dark things going on 1158 00:44:12,059 --> 00:44:10,599 we've got tons of material from the 1159 00:44:13,740 --> 00:44:12,069 third Intermediate Period but it's 1160 00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:13,750 trying to put the jigsaw puzzle together 1161 00:44:19,890 --> 00:44:16,480 that's always been the issue now I'm I 1162 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:19,900 always have love problems puzzles trying 1163 00:44:24,359 --> 00:44:22,690 to solve things I don't want to just 1164 00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:24,369 read a book that doesn't solve a problem 1165 00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:25,630 I don't want to read a book that just 1166 00:44:29,279 --> 00:44:27,190 repeats what everybody else has said in 1167 00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:29,289 the past I want to go I want to stretch 1168 00:44:33,150 --> 00:44:31,180 my imagination or to challenge myself to 1169 00:44:35,730 --> 00:44:33,160 look at issues and problems and try and 1170 00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:35,740 find ways to solutions and ways to 1171 00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:37,510 resolve those questions those anomalies 1172 00:44:41,549 --> 00:44:39,910 that we find in the archaeology and in 1173 00:44:44,789 --> 00:44:41,559 the history of historical reconstruction 1174 00:44:47,250 --> 00:44:44,799 so I got fascinated with this whole 1175 00:44:49,589 --> 00:44:47,260 business as you mentioned earlier when 1176 00:44:51,210 --> 00:44:49,599 Velikovsky first came out with his book 1177 00:44:53,220 --> 00:44:51,220 Asian chaos 1178 00:44:54,599 --> 00:44:53,230 now I didn't actually know about it when 1179 00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:54,609 it first came out on the 50s but I 1180 00:44:59,190 --> 00:44:57,880 picked it up and read it in I think 1966 1181 00:45:01,769 --> 00:44:59,200 or something like that I think it was 1182 00:45:03,269 --> 00:45:01,779 when I first read it now at that time I 1183 00:45:06,089 --> 00:45:03,279 had got a good background in geology 1184 00:45:07,620 --> 00:45:06,099 from my childhood so I knew the material 1185 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:07,630 and I could obviously see that he'd got 1186 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:12,490 it completely wrong however he did fall 1187 00:45:17,670 --> 00:45:15,250 or fall upon or focus on some areas 1188 00:45:19,650 --> 00:45:17,680 which were certainly of great interest 1189 00:45:21,539 --> 00:45:19,660 and I thought that deck right now is 1190 00:45:23,730 --> 00:45:21,549 there another way to explain them that 1191 00:45:27,079 --> 00:45:23,740 isn't the Velikovsky in a way the you 1192 00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:27,089 know by making these these dynasties 1193 00:45:31,319 --> 00:45:28,990 identical in other words he put make the 1194 00:45:34,049 --> 00:45:31,329 26 dynasty into the 98th dynasty now 1195 00:45:35,819 --> 00:45:34,059 he'd have promises ii equated with Necco 1196 00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:35,829 the first all those two sort of things 1197 00:45:38,009 --> 00:45:36,730 were doing which really weren't 1198 00:45:39,450 --> 00:45:38,019 historical you could prove it 1199 00:45:40,499 --> 00:45:39,460 archaeologically you could look at the 1200 00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:40,509 monuments and see they were quite 1201 00:45:44,819 --> 00:45:43,089 different people his explanations of how 1202 00:45:47,579 --> 00:45:44,829 he resolved his chronological revision 1203 00:45:48,930 --> 00:45:47,589 were we're really weak however he did 1204 00:45:51,180 --> 00:45:48,940 come across some very interesting things 1205 00:45:53,490 --> 00:45:51,190 and one of those was the time when he 1206 00:45:55,049 --> 00:45:53,500 placed the Exodus in Egypt which was in 1207 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:55,059 the 30 dynasty and that looked good to 1208 00:45:58,849 --> 00:45:56,890 me that looked very interesting when you 1209 00:46:00,960 --> 00:45:58,859 look at the archaeological evidence so I 1210 00:46:02,849 --> 00:46:00,970 thought well you know those are 1211 00:46:04,410 --> 00:46:02,859 interesting things but my job as an 1212 00:46:06,180 --> 00:46:04,420 Egyptologist was not to look at the 1213 00:46:08,309 --> 00:46:06,190 Bible it was to look at the chronology 1214 00:46:10,769 --> 00:46:08,319 of Egypt and the area where there was 1215 00:46:11,579 --> 00:46:10,779 most contention and most problems was 1216 00:46:13,529 --> 00:46:11,589 the 30 intermedia 1217 00:46:15,329 --> 00:46:13,539 this is a challenge that I want to 1218 00:46:19,410 --> 00:46:15,339 tackle this is something I want to look 1219 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:19,420 at and so I'm I was researching it from 1220 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:23,890 about so 65 66 67 onwards until I went 1221 00:46:27,269 --> 00:46:25,450 to university in the and while I was 1222 00:46:28,979 --> 00:46:27,279 doing my music by the way and then I 1223 00:46:31,349 --> 00:46:28,989 went on to university and then in the 1224 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:31,359 eighties and I brought all this material 1225 00:46:35,670 --> 00:46:34,210 with me now I got a place at University 1226 00:46:38,309 --> 00:46:35,680 College London where there was only 1227 00:46:39,779 --> 00:46:38,319 three places on offer and my department 1228 00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:39,789 Egyptology Department took three 1229 00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:41,680 undergraduates each year and there were 1230 00:46:46,709 --> 00:46:44,079 over 90 applications in my year for 1231 00:46:48,769 --> 00:46:46,719 those three places so when I went for my 1232 00:46:51,749 --> 00:46:48,779 interview because I knew so much about 1233 00:46:53,579 --> 00:46:51,759 Egyptology and ancient Egypt and because 1234 00:46:54,809 --> 00:46:53,589 I was a mature student they snapped me 1235 00:46:57,180 --> 00:46:54,819 up straight away and I got one of those 1236 00:46:59,279 --> 00:46:57,190 three places and I spent my undergrad 1237 00:47:01,349 --> 00:46:59,289 GOP read for three years actually 1238 00:47:03,420 --> 00:47:01,359 debating with the postgraduate students 1239 00:47:04,739 --> 00:47:03,430 and the professors in the pro strategy 1240 00:47:06,660 --> 00:47:04,749 at seminars even though I don't 1241 00:47:08,609 --> 00:47:06,670 undergraduate because I knew more about 1242 00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:08,619 the 32 meter per that most of them did 1243 00:47:14,910 --> 00:47:11,440 so it was an obvious choice when I 1244 00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:14,920 completed my BA BA to go into doing a 1245 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:17,140 PhD on that very subject 32 middie 1246 00:47:20,969 --> 00:47:19,210 appeared chronology because I could see 1247 00:47:23,219 --> 00:47:20,979 there that was huge problems in the way 1248 00:47:25,229 --> 00:47:23,229 that scholars had constructed that 1249 00:47:27,479 --> 00:47:25,239 period over the last hundred fifty years 1250 00:47:29,489 --> 00:47:27,489 since they first began the decipherment 1251 00:47:31,620 --> 00:47:29,499 of hieroglyphs and we began to recognize 1252 00:47:33,509 --> 00:47:31,630 the names of kings we started to piece 1253 00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:33,519 them together into into dynasties a week 1254 00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:35,650 we started construct the data that we 1255 00:47:39,569 --> 00:47:37,390 could read now for the first time and 1256 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:39,579 and what basically happened was that 1257 00:47:43,589 --> 00:47:41,410 they over stretched the third 1258 00:47:45,870 --> 00:47:43,599 Intermediate Period eight-day they left 1259 00:47:47,849 --> 00:47:45,880 huge spaces and gaps in it and made it 1260 00:47:50,219 --> 00:47:47,859 really long and it was completely 1261 00:47:51,839 --> 00:47:50,229 unnatural what was happening and as a 1262 00:47:53,219 --> 00:47:51,849 result of that all the dynasties that 1263 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:53,229 came before the third intermediate 1264 00:47:57,749 --> 00:47:56,170 before dynasty 21 all of them were 1265 00:47:59,700 --> 00:47:57,759 pushed back in time because the third 1266 00:48:01,829 --> 00:47:59,710 intermediate but had been overextended 1267 00:48:04,019 --> 00:48:01,839 backwards in time so the 98 illest he 1268 00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,029 was much older than the reality was in 1269 00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:06,400 my view same with the with the dishes 1270 00:48:09,479 --> 00:48:08,049 that went before the Middle Kingdom etc 1271 00:48:11,549 --> 00:48:09,489 so he ended up with her and 1272 00:48:13,380 --> 00:48:11,559 overstretched Egyptian chronology and 1273 00:48:15,329 --> 00:48:13,390 the result of that was when you look 1274 00:48:18,839 --> 00:48:15,339 beyond the borders of Egypt to places 1275 00:48:21,450 --> 00:48:18,849 like Israel or Anatolia or Minoan Crete 1276 00:48:23,069 --> 00:48:21,460 or whatever all their histories were 1277 00:48:25,499 --> 00:48:23,079 dependent on the Egyptian timeline 1278 00:48:27,179 --> 00:48:25,509 because we find Egyptian artifact 1279 00:48:29,489 --> 00:48:27,189 scattered all over the ancient world and 1280 00:48:31,799 --> 00:48:29,499 they date different levels of 1281 00:48:33,389 --> 00:48:31,809 archaeology in those places because 1282 00:48:35,189 --> 00:48:33,399 those places don't necessarily have 1283 00:48:38,039 --> 00:48:35,199 literature or documentation that the 1284 00:48:39,659 --> 00:48:38,049 Egyptians did so they end up bequeathing 1285 00:48:42,059 --> 00:48:39,669 the Egyptian timeline to all those 1286 00:48:43,829 --> 00:48:42,069 different civilizations now the problem 1287 00:48:46,099 --> 00:48:43,839 was once you look at Israel from the 1288 00:48:49,139 --> 00:48:46,109 perspective of Egypt with his extended 1289 00:48:50,969 --> 00:48:49,149 overstretched timeline nothing worked 1290 00:48:53,249 --> 00:48:50,979 nothing synchronized the stories in the 1291 00:48:55,859 --> 00:48:53,259 Bible simply did not fit with the 1292 00:48:57,419 --> 00:48:55,869 Egyptian history and so we end up with 1293 00:48:59,399 --> 00:48:57,429 situations like Rama since the second is 1294 00:49:01,319 --> 00:48:59,409 the fare of the Exodus and yet all 1295 00:49:03,569 --> 00:49:01,329 modern scholars accept now that there is 1296 00:49:07,139 --> 00:49:03,579 no evidence at all of an exodus or a 1297 00:49:09,509 --> 00:49:07,149 massive population of Hebrews some 1298 00:49:11,009 --> 00:49:09,519 Semites in in the 1910s - Egypt no other 1299 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:11,019 words the kossler conquest of the 1300 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:12,729 promised land towards the end of the 1301 00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:15,130 1910s did the cities that you know was 1302 00:49:18,059 --> 00:49:16,569 supposed to been destroyed then had been 1303 00:49:21,419 --> 00:49:18,069 destroyed donkey's years earlier 1304 00:49:23,789 --> 00:49:21,429 so nothing fitted and so when I worked 1305 00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:23,799 on my third intermediate timeline and I 1306 00:49:27,419 --> 00:49:25,569 realized that some of the dynasties in 1307 00:49:28,620 --> 00:49:27,429 that pit overlapped they didn't there 1308 00:49:29,879 --> 00:49:28,630 weren't all sequential they were 1309 00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:29,889 actually overlapping each other in 1310 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:31,599 different parts of Egypt so you had a 1311 00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:33,249 line of kings in the Northeast and you 1312 00:49:37,259 --> 00:49:35,049 had a line of kings in the south another 1313 00:49:39,749 --> 00:49:37,269 one in the in the center and they were 1314 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:39,759 all contemporary with each other and yet 1315 00:49:44,639 --> 00:49:42,249 we treated them as one single line one 1316 00:49:46,229 --> 00:49:44,649 line after another and so we to 1317 00:49:48,359 --> 00:49:46,239 overstretch the chronology so when I 1318 00:49:50,429 --> 00:49:48,369 compressed it down again I brought it 1319 00:49:53,159 --> 00:49:50,439 down to the tightest it could go we 1320 00:49:55,199 --> 00:49:53,169 found then that the 90 dynasty rama c ii 1321 00:49:57,389 --> 00:49:55,209 and all those kings come down in date 1322 00:49:59,309 --> 00:49:57,399 they had become towards more towards the 1323 00:50:01,279 --> 00:49:59,319 present and so they completely re 1324 00:50:03,509 --> 00:50:01,289 synchronize with the biblical story 1325 00:50:06,029 --> 00:50:03,519 everything who slots into a different 1326 00:50:08,039 --> 00:50:06,039 location historically and then suddenly 1327 00:50:09,839 --> 00:50:08,049 when you look at the timeline then you 1328 00:50:12,269 --> 00:50:09,849 find the biblical history and egyptian 1329 00:50:13,829 --> 00:50:12,279 history actually work together that we 1330 00:50:15,709 --> 00:50:13,839 start to see the evidence of the 1331 00:50:19,019 --> 00:50:15,719 biblical stories within Egyptian history 1332 00:50:22,769 --> 00:50:19,029 no I do know that the and I'm looking at 1333 00:50:25,469 --> 00:50:22,779 the I can't pronounce the name of these 1334 00:50:28,529 --> 00:50:25,479 estate but I know that there are several 1335 00:50:29,879 --> 00:50:28,539 mentions of Israel in the in Egyptian 1336 00:50:31,060 --> 00:50:29,889 literature and that have been carved on 1337 00:50:34,570 --> 00:50:31,070 certain 1338 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:34,580 not several there's only two okay but I 1339 00:50:37,570 --> 00:50:36,050 I understand well if there's only two 1340 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:37,580 where we actually have the name but the 1341 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:38,690 steel you're talking about is called the 1342 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:41,570 Merneptah still a steel one yes neptr 1343 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:43,610 was the son of rama seek ii so if Rama 1344 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:45,770 seeks the second as a lot of scholars 1345 00:50:50,740 --> 00:50:47,690 still maintain as the Fuhrer of the 1346 00:50:53,590 --> 00:50:50,750 Exodus then when you get to somber M Tom 1347 00:50:56,590 --> 00:50:53,600 inept er you find Israel is already as 1348 00:51:00,100 --> 00:50:56,600 established in in Palestine in Canaan as 1349 00:51:02,230 --> 00:51:00,110 a major important political entity now 1350 00:51:03,550 --> 00:51:02,240 that's not possible if Rama C the second 1351 00:51:05,350 --> 00:51:03,560 was the furnace because they should be 1352 00:51:07,540 --> 00:51:05,360 wandering around the desert for forty 1353 00:51:11,290 --> 00:51:07,550 years they can't be established as a 1354 00:51:12,820 --> 00:51:11,300 important political entity in Canaan on 1355 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:12,830 the generation immediately after Rama 1356 00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:13,910 sees that's not possible 1357 00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:16,400 so that as a clue that told a lot of 1358 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:17,770 people there's something very wrong here 1359 00:51:22,630 --> 00:51:20,690 you know there Israel is equated in that 1360 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:22,640 stealer with the Hittites he's equated 1361 00:51:27,730 --> 00:51:24,170 with the Libyans he's equated with a 1362 00:51:29,590 --> 00:51:27,740 really important power Syria so it's no 1363 00:51:31,540 --> 00:51:29,600 she's not some tribes wandering around 1364 00:51:32,020 --> 00:51:31,550 the desert you know it can't possibly be 1365 00:51:37,330 --> 00:51:32,030 that 1366 00:51:40,180 --> 00:51:37,340 to everybody's attention about it and 1367 00:51:43,750 --> 00:51:40,190 then very much more recently they found 1368 00:51:45,820 --> 00:51:43,760 another pedestal of AB large statue and 1369 00:51:47,650 --> 00:51:45,830 they found this a part of this pedestal 1370 00:51:50,260 --> 00:51:47,660 in the building Museum it had been lying 1371 00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:50,270 there for about 60 or 70 years and they 1372 00:51:55,180 --> 00:51:52,640 realized that on the steel on the bottom 1373 00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:55,190 of this pedestal were the same names as 1374 00:51:59,560 --> 00:51:57,170 were on the Merneptah stele ER in 1375 00:52:01,420 --> 00:51:59,570 cartouche azure in name rings and there 1376 00:52:03,970 --> 00:52:01,430 was israel again sitting there on this 1377 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:03,980 thing now this statue belongs to 1378 00:52:09,220 --> 00:52:07,130 hundreds of years before ramasees ii so 1379 00:52:11,890 --> 00:52:09,230 it shows you that israel was already in 1380 00:52:13,300 --> 00:52:11,900 existence in canaan before rama sita and 1381 00:52:16,050 --> 00:52:13,310 rama she's therefore cannot be the 1382 00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:16,060 Pharaoh of the exodus it's impossible 1383 00:52:20,770 --> 00:52:19,280 now who have you been 1384 00:52:22,510 --> 00:52:20,780 or at least who'd you have determined to 1385 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:22,520 have been the farrell that is part of 1386 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:26,810 the exodus that's a difficult one the 1387 00:52:32,170 --> 00:52:30,050 way it works is very complicated first 1388 00:52:35,050 --> 00:52:32,180 of all you have the timeline revision 1389 00:52:36,610 --> 00:52:35,060 which obviously you're lowering the 1390 00:52:39,130 --> 00:52:36,620 dates of the Egyptian kings before the 1391 00:52:42,970 --> 00:52:39,140 21st dynasty so if we accept the 1392 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:42,980 biblical date of 1447 BC roughly for the 1393 00:52:46,780 --> 00:52:44,570 exodus which is 1394 00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:46,790 on the base of being 480 years before 1395 00:52:50,740 --> 00:52:49,250 the the time when Solomon built or laid 1396 00:52:53,740 --> 00:52:50,750 the first stone of the temple in 1397 00:52:56,110 --> 00:52:53,750 Jerusalem in his third year so if you go 1398 00:52:59,500 --> 00:52:56,120 if you project back 480 years you end up 1399 00:53:01,870 --> 00:52:59,510 with 1447 BC roughly for the time when 1400 00:53:04,270 --> 00:53:01,880 the exodus took place now without a 1401 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:04,280 revised Egyptian chronology that place 1402 00:53:09,130 --> 00:53:07,130 is the Exodus in the 18th dynasty in the 1403 00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:09,140 mid 18th dynasty but with the revised 1404 00:53:12,970 --> 00:53:10,790 timeline with the third Intermediate 1405 00:53:14,890 --> 00:53:12,980 Period shortened and therefore all the 1406 00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:14,900 earlier dates come down all the earlier 1407 00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:17,210 Kings come down in date we end up with 1408 00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:19,010 an exodus in at the end of the 13th 1409 00:53:23,590 --> 00:53:20,930 dynasty so we're looking at that time 1410 00:53:25,780 --> 00:53:23,600 period for an exodus now it just so 1411 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:25,790 happens that in the late 12th dynasty a 1412 00:53:32,590 --> 00:53:30,770 new population of Semites arrives in 1413 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:32,600 Egypt at the beginning they're quite 1414 00:53:37,780 --> 00:53:36,170 small about 100 150 people they settle 1415 00:53:40,380 --> 00:53:37,790 in the eastern Delta which is where the 1416 00:53:43,330 --> 00:53:40,390 Bible calls it the land of Goshen and 1417 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:43,340 and from there they expand and by 1418 00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:46,090 several generations later they are 1419 00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:48,920 something like 30,000 of them living in 1420 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:51,560 this place in a huge city called a varus 1421 00:53:56,860 --> 00:53:54,050 and then at the end of the 13th dynasty 1422 00:53:58,690 --> 00:53:56,870 the whole bunch disappears the the whole 1423 00:54:01,030 --> 00:53:58,700 site is abandoned all the Semitic 1424 00:54:02,620 --> 00:54:01,040 quarter is just abandoned and they just 1425 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:02,630 disappear off the face of the earth and 1426 00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:05,930 and and what we have is plague pits in 1427 00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:07,520 the ground just immediately beforehand 1428 00:54:11,140 --> 00:54:09,110 where bodies are being tossed in and all 1429 00:54:13,870 --> 00:54:11,150 sorts of stuff like that and then a 1430 00:54:15,790 --> 00:54:13,880 little time later cities like Jericho 1431 00:54:18,820 --> 00:54:15,800 are destroyed and burned to the ground 1432 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:18,830 and they're left in that state for four 1433 00:54:22,810 --> 00:54:20,810 to six hundred years where then there's 1434 00:54:24,430 --> 00:54:22,820 no occupation in Jericho and all the 1435 00:54:26,590 --> 00:54:24,440 other cities that we hear about in the 1436 00:54:29,590 --> 00:54:26,600 conquest narratives of Joshua are also 1437 00:54:31,870 --> 00:54:29,600 destroyed at that time so it matches the 1438 00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:31,880 story of the Bible so well the story of 1439 00:54:35,530 --> 00:54:33,350 the sahjhan of the Israelites from 1440 00:54:37,810 --> 00:54:35,540 Joseph through to Moses and the exit and 1441 00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:37,820 the slavery period then the Exodus then 1442 00:54:41,260 --> 00:54:39,110 the conquest of the promised land under 1443 00:54:43,780 --> 00:54:41,270 Joshua is all there in the archaeology 1444 00:54:46,870 --> 00:54:43,790 of Egyptian and the Holy Land so it's 1445 00:54:49,150 --> 00:54:46,880 obvious that we're looking for an exodus 1446 00:54:52,950 --> 00:54:49,160 in the time of the late thirty dynasty 1447 00:54:55,810 --> 00:54:52,960 and in that particular context we have a 1448 00:54:57,910 --> 00:54:55,820 story our narrative by somebody called 1449 00:54:58,390 --> 00:54:57,920 Manito who was the priest of Egyptian 1450 00:55:00,880 --> 00:54:58,400 priests 1451 00:55:02,829 --> 00:55:00,890 and he wrote a history of Egypt and 1452 00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:02,839 weeds unfortunately only have a 1453 00:55:07,269 --> 00:55:04,730 redaction of his work now we don't have 1454 00:55:09,970 --> 00:55:07,279 the the full literary text but we do 1455 00:55:12,609 --> 00:55:09,980 have a particular quotation that was 1456 00:55:14,829 --> 00:55:12,619 quoted by a quartet quoted by Josephus 1457 00:55:16,450 --> 00:55:14,839 who had access to many thow before it 1458 00:55:19,390 --> 00:55:16,460 the final manuscript was destroyed and 1459 00:55:21,279 --> 00:55:19,400 Josephus actually quotes many thorn he 1460 00:55:22,930 --> 00:55:21,289 tells us that in the time of a king 1461 00:55:26,049 --> 00:55:22,940 called to Timaeus don't forget he's 1462 00:55:27,099 --> 00:55:26,059 writing in Greek now so the name to TMS 1463 00:55:30,849 --> 00:55:27,109 is the Greek form of an Egyptian 1464 00:55:33,519 --> 00:55:30,859 pharaohs name in that time God in the 1465 00:55:35,529 --> 00:55:33,529 singular smote the Egyptians something 1466 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:35,539 happened to the Egyptians and they 1467 00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:37,490 equate it with the smiting of God and 1468 00:55:41,620 --> 00:55:39,529 then immediately afterwards as a result 1469 00:55:43,180 --> 00:55:41,630 of this smiting there's an invasion of 1470 00:55:45,309 --> 00:55:43,190 Egypt by these people call the Hyksos 1471 00:55:47,140 --> 00:55:45,319 and they come in and they are able to 1472 00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:47,150 come in and attack Egypt to take it over 1473 00:55:51,670 --> 00:55:49,609 and the text says without striking a 1474 00:55:54,339 --> 00:55:51,680 blow there's no resistance Egypt doesn't 1475 00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:54,349 have an army to defend itself so these 1476 00:55:58,269 --> 00:55:56,000 people just come across the Sinai and 1477 00:56:00,670 --> 00:55:58,279 they take over Egypt for about 160 years 1478 00:56:02,170 --> 00:56:00,680 and and they dominate it and they 1479 00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:02,180 virtually enslaved the Egyptians I mean 1480 00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:03,770 it's like the turning of the tide as it 1481 00:56:09,549 --> 00:56:07,250 were so that again is very very 1482 00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:09,559 interesting because that to Timaeus 1483 00:56:14,289 --> 00:56:11,930 character we know to be a pharaoh called 1484 00:56:16,390 --> 00:56:14,299 do demos he was just about the last king 1485 00:56:19,029 --> 00:56:16,400 of the thirteen dynasty so it looks like 1486 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:19,039 in his reign God smote the Egyptians and 1487 00:56:23,710 --> 00:56:22,010 then the Egyptian army was destroyed and 1488 00:56:25,839 --> 00:56:23,720 these Marauders came in because there 1489 00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:25,849 was nobody to defend Egypt and invaded 1490 00:56:29,019 --> 00:56:26,930 Egypt and conquered it 1491 00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:29,029 now that's like the story of the 1492 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:30,710 Israelites leaving Egypt and the 1493 00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:32,210 Egyptian army being destroyed in the 1494 00:56:36,190 --> 00:56:34,609 amsoft the sea of reeds and there was no 1495 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:36,200 Egyptian army to defend it and so the 1496 00:56:40,750 --> 00:56:38,450 Hyksos came in so the whole story tied 1497 00:56:42,339 --> 00:56:40,760 together from joseph all the way through 1498 00:56:44,740 --> 00:56:42,349 to the conquest of the promised land in 1499 00:56:46,510 --> 00:56:44,750 the archeology of Egypt and Canaan with 1500 00:56:48,789 --> 00:56:46,520 also the corroborating evidence from 1501 00:56:51,490 --> 00:56:48,799 beneath or himself now for the Hyksos 1502 00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:51,500 mmm invasion yeah 1503 00:56:54,910 --> 00:56:53,599 again ramses ii wouldn't have been part 1504 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:54,920 of that that dynasty that would have 1505 00:56:58,599 --> 00:56:56,690 been afterwards that's much later oh 1506 00:57:01,839 --> 00:56:58,609 that's much like yeah but for at least 1507 00:57:03,849 --> 00:57:01,849 according to at least from what has been 1508 00:57:05,910 --> 00:57:03,859 shown here that's around 1250 BC 1509 00:57:08,769 --> 00:57:05,920 according to the standard chronology 1510 00:57:10,769 --> 00:57:08,779 yeah and I know that the Phoenicians or 1511 00:57:12,509 --> 00:57:10,779 the sea peoples had come much around 1512 00:57:13,979 --> 00:57:12,519 that time as well there a little bit 1513 00:57:16,169 --> 00:57:13,989 later about a hundred years later 1514 00:57:18,229 --> 00:57:16,179 okay there's make 80s right so there's 1515 00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:18,239 no connection between between those two 1516 00:57:21,749 --> 00:57:20,319 you know between those two invasions at 1517 00:57:23,689 --> 00:57:21,759 that point most of that part of the 1518 00:57:27,890 --> 00:57:23,699 world was was under complete upheaval 1519 00:57:30,929 --> 00:57:27,900 but some some archeologists do date the 1520 00:57:33,269 --> 00:57:30,939 the decline of that part of the world 1521 00:57:37,289 --> 00:57:33,279 starting at around 1500 BC give or take 1522 00:57:38,759 --> 00:57:37,299 you know a century or two is two phases 1523 00:57:41,069 --> 00:57:38,769 there are two phases here there's the 1524 00:57:42,689 --> 00:57:41,079 Hyksos invasion which is it's eventually 1525 00:57:44,789 --> 00:57:42,699 before the beginning of the New Kingdom 1526 00:57:46,919 --> 00:57:44,799 well it's it brings an end to the Middle 1527 00:57:48,419 --> 00:57:46,929 Kingdom the Middle Kingdom is the tiara 1528 00:57:50,669 --> 00:57:48,429 we've just been talking about with these 1529 00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:50,679 big Semitic population in Egypt then 1530 00:57:53,759 --> 00:57:52,209 there's this thing called the second 1531 00:57:55,559 --> 00:57:53,769 Intermediate Period which is the Hyksos 1532 00:57:57,329 --> 00:57:55,569 era and then we get the New Kingdom 1533 00:57:59,939 --> 00:57:57,339 where the Hyksos are thrown out of Egypt 1534 00:58:01,769 --> 00:57:59,949 and we get a recovery and we get this 1535 00:58:03,509 --> 00:58:01,779 right of the powerful military Kings 1536 00:58:05,939 --> 00:58:03,519 right foot moves the 3rd of the 18th 1537 00:58:07,649 --> 00:58:05,949 dynasty and eventually setting the 1st 1538 00:58:09,630 --> 00:58:07,659 and Rama Singh the second this is after 1539 00:58:12,779 --> 00:58:09,640 our camp Martin who summer stood between 1540 00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:12,789 those and then at the the beginning of 1541 00:58:16,739 --> 00:58:14,529 the 20th dynasty we have Rama sees the 1542 00:58:18,539 --> 00:58:16,749 third and that's when the sea peoples in 1543 00:58:21,269 --> 00:58:18,549 Paige invade and that's a different 1544 00:58:23,009 --> 00:58:21,279 effort because that's the result of a 1545 00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:23,019 collapse of the Late Bronze Age that's 1546 00:58:26,609 --> 00:58:24,729 the time of the Trojan War this is the 1547 00:58:28,709 --> 00:58:26,619 time when the Greek world the 1548 00:58:32,099 --> 00:58:28,719 indo-european world are beginning to 1549 00:58:34,140 --> 00:58:32,109 rise up and dominate the Middle East so 1550 00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:34,150 you get an invasion of sea peoples who 1551 00:58:38,479 --> 00:58:36,609 are effectively indo-europeans they're 1552 00:58:40,890 --> 00:58:38,489 Philistines that their checkered 1553 00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:40,900 Huachuca ROI as they call it in homer 1554 00:58:45,899 --> 00:58:43,119 that they are Pella set which is 1555 00:58:47,909 --> 00:58:45,909 Philistine that Don una which is the 1556 00:58:49,709 --> 00:58:47,919 danoi of again were the Greeks who 1557 00:58:51,989 --> 00:58:49,719 fought against the Trojans in the Trojan 1558 00:58:53,459 --> 00:58:51,999 War these are all indo-europeans who are 1559 00:58:55,529 --> 00:58:53,469 moving down into the Levant because 1560 00:58:56,999 --> 00:58:55,539 there's a sort of domino effect there 1561 00:58:59,159 --> 00:58:57,009 are other peoples coming in from the 1562 00:59:01,409 --> 00:58:59,169 steppe lands and pushing them southwards 1563 00:59:03,569 --> 00:59:01,419 from from Europe into into the 1564 00:59:04,859 --> 00:59:03,579 Mediterranean and so this is a different 1565 00:59:07,079 --> 00:59:04,869 thing this is a collapse of the Late 1566 00:59:08,370 --> 00:59:07,089 Bronze Age Empire this is not the same 1567 00:59:10,890 --> 00:59:08,380 thing as the Hicks off Syria which is a 1568 00:59:12,029 --> 00:59:10,900 lot easier which was actually resulted 1569 00:59:13,079 --> 00:59:12,039 in the collapse of the middle Bronze Age 1570 00:59:15,479 --> 00:59:13,089 so we're talking about two completely 1571 00:59:17,519 --> 00:59:15,489 different eras where history didn't 1572 00:59:19,229 --> 00:59:17,529 quite repeat itself but there were 1573 00:59:21,479 --> 00:59:19,239 similarities in the sense there were two 1574 00:59:23,489 --> 00:59:21,489 invading armies at two completely 1575 00:59:24,420 --> 00:59:23,499 different periods coming down into the 1576 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:24,430 Levant coming down 1577 00:59:29,460 --> 00:59:27,250 towards Egypt principally because Egypt 1578 00:59:31,230 --> 00:59:29,470 was the breadbasket of the ancient world 1579 00:59:33,540 --> 00:59:31,240 when there was ever famine in those 1580 00:59:35,550 --> 00:59:33,550 regions everybody had had it for Egypt 1581 00:59:37,170 --> 00:59:35,560 because Egypt the Nile and therefore it 1582 00:59:39,570 --> 00:59:37,180 would survive famines that if there was 1583 00:59:41,370 --> 00:59:39,580 desiccation in the north people had it 1584 00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:41,380 down to the Nile that was the safe zone 1585 00:59:45,390 --> 00:59:43,810 where they would come for refuge and so 1586 00:59:47,490 --> 00:59:45,400 these these things do repeat themselves 1587 00:59:49,410 --> 00:59:47,500 in history but we're talking about three 1588 00:59:51,780 --> 00:59:49,420 to four hundred years difference between 1589 00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:51,790 the Hicks US invasion and the and the 1590 00:59:56,610 --> 00:59:53,710 so-called Philistine or Sea Peoples 1591 00:59:58,380 --> 00:59:56,620 invasion and one of the one of the 1592 01:00:00,330 --> 00:59:58,390 individuals that is in the chat right 1593 01:00:01,410 --> 01:00:00,340 now and it is Michael he's the one 1594 01:00:02,700 --> 01:00:01,420 that's that's throwing a lot of the 1595 01:00:04,650 --> 01:00:02,710 questions and again Michael thank you 1596 01:00:06,810 --> 01:00:04,660 very much for this one he's wondering 1597 01:00:10,650 --> 01:00:06,820 how the Hittites would would fit into 1598 01:00:11,730 --> 01:00:10,660 this Haruko let's not confuse he attacks 1599 01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:11,740 with Hyksos they're very different 1600 01:00:16,410 --> 01:00:14,160 people but Hittites Hittites our 1601 01:00:18,420 --> 01:00:16,420 indo-europeans they originated 1602 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:18,430 originally from the steppe lands the 1603 01:00:22,770 --> 01:00:20,410 Kurgan culture to the north of the Black 1604 01:00:24,870 --> 01:00:22,780 Sea and they and they were originally 1605 01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:24,880 Illusion people their people are with an 1606 01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:26,890 indo-european language ooh who came 1607 01:00:30,300 --> 01:00:28,240 round from either side of the Black Sea 1608 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:30,310 and entered what we call Anatolia or 1609 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:32,290 modern Turkey today some of them 1610 01:00:36,900 --> 01:00:35,290 actually settled in Troy in Troy - so 1611 01:00:38,850 --> 01:00:36,910 the Trojans were Liu Yun's and over 1612 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:38,860 settled down the coast at my Letus and 1613 01:00:43,380 --> 01:00:41,170 other places down there the luca the 1614 01:00:45,150 --> 01:00:43,390 Lycians in the southwest of Anatolia 1615 01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:45,160 but the Hittites came across from the 1616 01:00:49,710 --> 01:00:47,530 east side of the of the Black Sea and 1617 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:49,720 they arrived in central Anatolia in the 1618 01:00:54,780 --> 01:00:52,930 plateau region and they actually invaded 1619 01:00:56,910 --> 01:00:54,790 that region the Haddock peoples in the 1620 01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:56,920 Aegean were overthrown by them and they 1621 01:01:01,980 --> 01:00:58,690 became the rulers of a place called hat 1622 01:01:03,570 --> 01:01:01,990 OSHA and hat OSHA is the capital of the 1623 01:01:04,110 --> 01:01:03,580 Hittites the Hittites were actually 1624 01:01:06,270 --> 01:01:04,120 called Hattie 1625 01:01:08,100 --> 01:01:06,280 in the ancient languages so how to 1626 01:01:10,020 --> 01:01:08,110 Sharon Hattie are the same and the same 1627 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:10,030 thing basically the Hitachi is the 1628 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:12,370 biblical terminology for them so these 1629 01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:14,170 people are indo-europeans and they were 1630 01:01:20,580 --> 01:01:18,790 a very strong vigorous northern folk I 1631 01:01:22,380 --> 01:01:20,590 mean they woke near Hardy there was a 1632 01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:22,390 hearty bit like you Canadians I mean 1633 01:01:27,450 --> 01:01:24,640 they had very cold winters you know 1634 01:01:30,180 --> 01:01:27,460 they're not mamby-pamby southerners and 1635 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:30,190 and so they they became the principal 1636 01:01:36,090 --> 01:01:32,410 enemy of Egypt during the nineteenth 1637 01:01:38,350 --> 01:01:36,100 dynasty principally because what 1638 01:01:39,970 --> 01:01:38,360 happened was that the great kings Sapolu 1639 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:39,980 mother first you try saying that when 1640 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:43,010 you've had a few drinks I couldn't know 1641 01:01:49,660 --> 01:01:46,010 he he was the great emperor of the new 1642 01:01:52,150 --> 01:01:49,670 kingdom of of the Hittites and when 1643 01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:52,160 Tutankhamun was we think possibly 1644 01:01:57,460 --> 01:01:54,290 murdered or died in battle or whatever 1645 01:01:59,710 --> 01:01:57,470 his widow and Kazan Amon wrote so 1646 01:02:02,590 --> 01:01:59,720 bloomer in in the Hittite lands and said 1647 01:02:04,690 --> 01:02:02,600 I've got no air I you know I'm here the 1648 01:02:06,970 --> 01:02:04,700 Queen I'm the widow Queen and I'm being 1649 01:02:09,190 --> 01:02:06,980 forced to marry a commoner you know a 1650 01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:09,200 military man we turns out to be a guy 1651 01:02:12,670 --> 01:02:10,730 called I who becomes the next pharaoh 1652 01:02:16,270 --> 01:02:12,680 who was actually a general in the army 1653 01:02:18,310 --> 01:02:16,280 and a vizier and she writes to the hit 1654 01:02:20,410 --> 01:02:18,320 our Emperor says please send me your son 1655 01:02:22,330 --> 01:02:20,420 so that he could become Pharaoh and we 1656 01:02:24,730 --> 01:02:22,340 can unite our two lands in this pact 1657 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:24,740 between the true great empires of Egypt 1658 01:02:29,290 --> 01:02:27,770 and an hatty land and and and then we 1659 01:02:31,510 --> 01:02:29,300 will then rule together and I will marry 1660 01:02:33,940 --> 01:02:31,520 royalty I won't marry a commoner but on 1661 01:02:36,610 --> 01:02:33,950 the way down he sends his supplement 1662 01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:36,620 sends his sons ananza down to Egypt and 1663 01:02:42,850 --> 01:02:38,720 he's murdered on on the doorstep of 1664 01:02:45,070 --> 01:02:42,860 Egypt probably by ice cohorts his spies 1665 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:45,080 or whatever so this poor hit sigh prince 1666 01:02:48,790 --> 01:02:47,090 is bumped off and that starts a 1667 01:02:52,030 --> 01:02:48,800 hundred-year war between the Hittites 1668 01:02:53,290 --> 01:02:52,040 and the Egyptians because after to the 1669 01:02:55,690 --> 01:02:53,300 Commish death and after the end of the 1670 01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:55,700 eighteenth dynasty we find the kings of 1671 01:02:59,650 --> 01:02:57,890 like SETI the first and Rama see the 1672 01:03:02,020 --> 01:02:59,660 second of fighting all their wars 1673 01:03:05,170 --> 01:03:02,030 against the Hittites so they are a very 1674 01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:05,180 very powerful northern enemy of Egypt 1675 01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:07,250 until they eventually signed a peace 1676 01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:09,050 treaty with Rama see the second and then 1677 01:03:13,390 --> 01:03:11,090 they become allies but they are the 1678 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:13,400 other great superpower of the region 1679 01:03:17,950 --> 01:03:16,250 during the nineteenth dynasty that's 1680 01:03:19,090 --> 01:03:17,960 absolutely fascinating and I know that 1681 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:19,100 I've probably read that somewhere and I 1682 01:03:25,510 --> 01:03:21,770 know that the the Hittites had used cats 1683 01:03:27,940 --> 01:03:25,520 as a kind of a cat shield during one of 1684 01:03:30,430 --> 01:03:27,950 their more famous battles if I'm not 1685 01:03:32,380 --> 01:03:30,440 mistaken which kind of sounds a cat 1686 01:03:34,330 --> 01:03:32,390 shield was made by a cat shield well the 1687 01:03:35,770 --> 01:03:34,340 the the the the theory goes that they 1688 01:03:37,420 --> 01:03:35,780 had to put cat they knew that the 1689 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:37,430 Egyptians that revered cats is God so 1690 01:03:40,870 --> 01:03:39,290 they oh that's out in front of their 1691 01:03:43,960 --> 01:03:40,880 army no when the Egyptians wouldn't 1692 01:03:46,180 --> 01:03:43,970 attack we at the den of lore being cat 1693 01:03:49,060 --> 01:03:46,190 friendly people and my official co-host 1694 01:03:52,030 --> 01:03:49,070 being Koko my ten-year-old 1695 01:03:52,990 --> 01:03:52,040 yeah you know English blue she she 1696 01:03:55,420 --> 01:03:53,000 probably wouldn't like that at all I 1697 01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:55,430 don't think she I don't think she would 1698 01:03:58,120 --> 01:03:56,690 I don't think she particularly ought to 1699 01:03:59,920 --> 01:03:58,130 be strung up on a Hittite shield but 1700 01:04:01,570 --> 01:03:59,930 I've never heard that before they set 1701 01:04:04,780 --> 01:04:01,580 another folklore thing that you come 1702 01:04:06,340 --> 01:04:04,790 across disability it's certainly not in 1703 01:04:08,020 --> 01:04:06,350 the narratives that we have from the 1704 01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:08,030 battles and we have two versions of the 1705 01:04:11,530 --> 01:04:09,530 battles we have the Hittite version and 1706 01:04:13,900 --> 01:04:11,540 we have the Rama C the second version 1707 01:04:16,510 --> 01:04:13,910 many copies of it on the walls of the 1708 01:04:18,580 --> 01:04:16,520 temples and that isn't the rules which 1709 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:18,590 actually nearly comes to ramasees end 1710 01:04:23,830 --> 01:04:21,410 the the way that the story goes is that 1711 01:04:25,900 --> 01:04:23,840 the the Hittites were hiding in the 1712 01:04:27,820 --> 01:04:25,910 mists their chariot force was hiring the 1713 01:04:30,340 --> 01:04:27,830 mist on the east side of the car - the 1714 01:04:32,050 --> 01:04:30,350 city and the Egyptians arrived on the 1715 01:04:33,970 --> 01:04:32,060 west side and they were strung out 1716 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:33,980 several days to march back through 1717 01:04:37,990 --> 01:04:36,170 Canaan and so the Hittites swooped 1718 01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:38,000 around and attack Rama seat in his camp 1719 01:04:41,890 --> 01:04:39,290 before the rest of the Egyptian army 1720 01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:41,900 could arrive and obliterated half the 1721 01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:45,440 army and it was so-called bravery on the 1722 01:04:49,150 --> 01:04:46,970 part of the King Rama see the second 1723 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:49,160 they're able to turn the tide where and 1724 01:04:53,230 --> 01:04:50,810 then when they are in arrived 1725 01:04:55,420 --> 01:04:53,240 a group of mercenaries came to to 1726 01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:55,430 relieve ramasees they managed defeat to 1727 01:05:00,100 --> 01:04:57,890 defeat the Hittites in the battle itself 1728 01:05:01,900 --> 01:05:00,110 or at least create a poor situation 1729 01:05:03,820 --> 01:05:01,910 where the Hittites were not victorious 1730 01:05:05,710 --> 01:05:03,830 but that is the story that it's 1731 01:05:07,330 --> 01:05:05,720 described on the walls of the temples 1732 01:05:09,670 --> 01:05:07,340 and I'm not sure about cats or whether 1733 01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:09,680 cats come into it except I have to say 1734 01:05:14,620 --> 01:05:12,770 ramasees did have a pet lion in his camp 1735 01:05:17,980 --> 01:05:14,630 with him when he was attacked by the 1736 01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:17,990 Hittites so there is one cat there at 1737 01:05:24,300 --> 01:05:20,000 least at least we can we can close that 1738 01:05:26,380 --> 01:05:24,310 cat that catastrophe of a battle and yes 1739 01:05:28,690 --> 01:05:26,390 and now I know we've got a little off 1740 01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:28,700 track let's let's circle back around it 1741 01:05:34,510 --> 01:05:30,410 and start with ya um start back with 1742 01:05:35,980 --> 01:05:34,520 Abraham and Egypt during the 1832 BC and 1743 01:05:40,450 --> 01:05:35,990 see if we can catch back up to where we 1744 01:05:41,710 --> 01:05:40,460 were okay okay well Abraham is a 1745 01:05:43,330 --> 01:05:41,720 difficult one to pin down 1746 01:05:44,890 --> 01:05:43,340 we don't haven't they think about 1747 01:05:46,060 --> 01:05:44,900 archeology and the thing about history 1748 01:05:49,150 --> 01:05:46,070 you never got to be able to find 1749 01:05:50,590 --> 01:05:49,160 everybody that ever lived you know any 1750 01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:50,600 any person who's mentioned in literature 1751 01:05:55,930 --> 01:05:52,850 and in this particular case we are 1752 01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:55,940 absolutely we have nothing for Abraham 1753 01:06:00,790 --> 01:05:57,770 we do have considerable amount material 1754 01:06:02,350 --> 01:06:00,800 for Joseph we don't have a lot for Moses 1755 01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:02,360 to be honest and we have a little bit 1756 01:06:07,690 --> 01:06:02,810 for 1757 01:06:09,550 --> 01:06:07,700 around Joshua's story and he wouldn't 1758 01:06:11,020 --> 01:06:09,560 expect to really find that much material 1759 01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:11,030 about these figures because they were 1760 01:06:16,780 --> 01:06:13,610 chieftains wandering the around Cain and 1761 01:06:17,890 --> 01:06:16,790 Abraham was a very wealthy chieftain but 1762 01:06:20,410 --> 01:06:17,900 he wouldn't necessarily appear in 1763 01:06:22,420 --> 01:06:20,420 documentation you know because the thing 1764 01:06:23,980 --> 01:06:22,430 about pastoralists is that they they 1765 01:06:26,650 --> 01:06:23,990 wind and weave their way through 1766 01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:26,660 civilization all the city-states they're 1767 01:06:32,050 --> 01:06:28,640 not city dwellers remember the story of 1768 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:32,060 lot so he's the one that goes on this in 1769 01:06:36,010 --> 01:06:33,890 the city but Abraham refuses to do it 1770 01:06:38,500 --> 01:06:36,020 and he was to go he has his camp at the 1771 01:06:40,750 --> 01:06:38,510 oak of Marmora in near Hebron so he 1772 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:40,760 Zoe's apostolate he's a wealthy Patras 1773 01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:42,650 but he wanders through this sort of 1774 01:06:47,500 --> 01:06:44,930 civilized structure of civilization he 1775 01:06:49,660 --> 01:06:47,510 hope in the ancient world so you're not 1776 01:06:51,490 --> 01:06:49,670 gonna find him in the records as such 1777 01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:51,500 he's not going to turn up Abraham is not 1778 01:06:54,660 --> 01:06:52,850 going to turn up in the records 1779 01:06:57,700 --> 01:06:54,670 necessarily unless you're very lucky so 1780 01:07:00,370 --> 01:06:57,710 we have to look for the the type of 1781 01:07:03,250 --> 01:07:00,380 environment and historical period that 1782 01:07:05,350 --> 01:07:03,260 he would fit into best and that is the 1783 01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:05,360 time when the amorite SAR moving down 1784 01:07:10,540 --> 01:07:08,210 from north Syria into Canaan so these 1785 01:07:13,450 --> 01:07:10,550 are people just like Abraham who's 1786 01:07:17,080 --> 01:07:13,460 called a wandering aramean and and they 1787 01:07:19,690 --> 01:07:17,090 come down and they occupy various parts 1788 01:07:21,730 --> 01:07:19,700 of Canaan within the city-state system 1789 01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:21,740 that we have in that period of time so 1790 01:07:25,660 --> 01:07:23,690 yeah and it eventually ends up in Egypt 1791 01:07:27,070 --> 01:07:25,670 as you know and he messes around there 1792 01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:27,080 for a bit many leagues back again and he 1793 01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:28,610 goes back into the into the promised 1794 01:07:32,140 --> 01:07:30,170 land or the so-called Promised Land 1795 01:07:35,830 --> 01:07:32,150 promised him by God in one of his 1796 01:07:37,900 --> 01:07:35,840 visions and then he is the big Atta 1797 01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:37,910 whatever that means and we're not sure 1798 01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:40,250 whether that actually means son a father 1799 01:07:44,410 --> 01:07:42,530 of a son or whether it means a the 1800 01:07:46,660 --> 01:07:44,420 beginning of a dynasty we're not sure 1801 01:07:49,810 --> 01:07:46,670 about that but let's say for instance 1802 01:07:52,030 --> 01:07:49,820 that he is the father of Isaac and then 1803 01:07:53,740 --> 01:07:52,040 Isaac is the father of Jacob and Jacob 1804 01:07:56,500 --> 01:07:53,750 is the father of Joseph and Joseph is 1805 01:07:58,780 --> 01:07:56,510 the one but then comes back to Egypt and 1806 01:08:01,270 --> 01:07:58,790 starts the whole process of bringing 1807 01:08:03,550 --> 01:08:01,280 those Israelites those those sons of 1808 01:08:06,430 --> 01:08:03,560 Jacob because Jacob is called Israel 1809 01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:06,440 into into Goshen into the eastern Delta 1810 01:08:10,450 --> 01:08:08,210 settles them there and then we get this 1811 01:08:12,190 --> 01:08:10,460 massive expansion in the city of a virus 1812 01:08:14,410 --> 01:08:12,200 and we know the story of Asad journalist 1813 01:08:16,210 --> 01:08:14,420 slavery and the Exodus and then the 1814 01:08:16,689 --> 01:08:16,220 Congress of the promised land so Abraham 1815 01:08:19,870 --> 01:08:16,699 is the 1816 01:08:22,059 --> 01:08:19,880 janitor of this group of people Abraham 1817 01:08:24,849 --> 01:08:22,069 is the one who received the vision that 1818 01:08:27,579 --> 01:08:24,859 God promises the land to him or to his 1819 01:08:30,519 --> 01:08:27,589 generations that follow him and Israel 1820 01:08:33,189 --> 01:08:30,529 is the who is Jacob is the eponymous 1821 01:08:35,739 --> 01:08:33,199 ancestor of the Israelites they then 1822 01:08:39,339 --> 01:08:35,749 named after him now there are many other 1823 01:08:42,699 --> 01:08:39,349 Semites in Egypt which we can call for 1824 01:08:43,839 --> 01:08:42,709 argument sake Hebrews because it's an 1825 01:08:45,609 --> 01:08:43,849 interesting thing this that everybody 1826 01:08:47,469 --> 01:08:45,619 thinks he bruises are Israelites well 1827 01:08:49,809 --> 01:08:47,479 it's rights were Hebrews but not all 1828 01:08:52,539 --> 01:08:49,819 Hebrews were original eyes the word 1829 01:08:54,309 --> 01:08:52,549 Hebrew is actually a term that means us 1830 01:08:55,870 --> 01:08:54,319 it's equivalent to I suppose there were 1831 01:08:58,419 --> 01:08:55,880 Gypsy in our modern language today 1832 01:09:00,519 --> 01:08:58,429 they're Wanderers they're people who are 1833 01:09:02,109 --> 01:09:00,529 not part of the the system they don't 1834 01:09:04,629 --> 01:09:02,119 pay their taxes they don't live in 1835 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:04,639 cities they they they wander through the 1836 01:09:08,829 --> 01:09:06,650 land as it were and that's what a Hebrew 1837 01:09:10,899 --> 01:09:08,839 really is so Hebrews are not just 1838 01:09:12,430 --> 01:09:10,909 Israelites that other other Hebrews as 1839 01:09:14,259 --> 01:09:12,440 well as it is realized Israelites are 1840 01:09:17,079 --> 01:09:14,269 specifically those people are born or 1841 01:09:19,419 --> 01:09:17,089 descended from Jacob that's specifically 1842 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:19,429 who Israelites are and so it lights our 1843 01:09:24,249 --> 01:09:21,170 Hebrews but they're not all not all 1844 01:09:25,839 --> 01:09:24,259 Hebrews or his lies and so you find the 1845 01:09:28,509 --> 01:09:25,849 term Hebrew used in the Bible as a 1846 01:09:30,609 --> 01:09:28,519 pejorative is it's the enemies of Israel 1847 01:09:32,469 --> 01:09:30,619 the Pharaoh or the Philistine to call 1848 01:09:35,109 --> 01:09:32,479 them Hebrews the the actually strikes 1849 01:09:37,209 --> 01:09:35,119 don't call themselves he prisons now I 1850 01:09:41,259 --> 01:09:37,219 know that within patterns of evidence 1851 01:09:44,019 --> 01:09:41,269 the excuse me the Israelis were normally 1852 01:09:46,629 --> 01:09:44,029 called Semites and they refer to as 1853 01:09:49,809 --> 01:09:46,639 Semites based on the idea that you know 1854 01:09:51,669 --> 01:09:49,819 it's it's a the the falling of one god 1855 01:09:54,189 --> 01:09:51,679 that that's kind of what it has been 1856 01:09:56,109 --> 01:09:54,199 attributed to is their yeah is there is 1857 01:09:59,229 --> 01:09:56,119 that is there a particular origin for 1858 01:10:01,359 --> 01:09:59,239 that for that term well they're not 1859 01:10:03,279 --> 01:10:01,369 called Semite because that word isn't a 1860 01:10:08,319 --> 01:10:03,289 word that you find in ancient Egypt they 1861 01:10:10,870 --> 01:10:08,329 call R mu a mu or Aleph a mu and that 1862 01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:10,880 word means AC attic but Asiatic doesn't 1863 01:10:15,489 --> 01:10:12,170 mean as we understand it today like 1864 01:10:17,020 --> 01:10:15,499 Chinese or Japanese or AC attic in those 1865 01:10:19,239 --> 01:10:17,030 were in that world meant somebody 1866 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:19,249 through who spoke spoke a semitic 1867 01:10:23,109 --> 01:10:22,489 language like Arabs like Mesopotamia 1868 01:10:25,509 --> 01:10:23,119 peoples 1869 01:10:27,069 --> 01:10:25,519 who spoke Semitic language as opposed to 1870 01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:27,079 hermetic language which is what Egyptian 1871 01:10:30,480 --> 01:10:28,090 was the 1872 01:10:32,850 --> 01:10:30,490 these we call them Semites because they 1873 01:10:35,250 --> 01:10:32,860 spoke semitic languages but that term is 1874 01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:35,260 not used in in the ancient world 1875 01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:38,650 okay so Semite is that is the people who 1876 01:10:42,390 --> 01:10:40,690 smoked spoke as Semitic languages 1877 01:10:44,460 --> 01:10:42,400 specifically with the with the 1878 01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:44,470 Israelites it's Hebrew is a Northwest 1879 01:10:48,150 --> 01:10:46,690 Semitic language Akkadian the language 1880 01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:48,160 of Mesopotamia is an East Semitic 1881 01:10:52,650 --> 01:10:50,410 language Arab Arabic is a West Semitic 1882 01:10:54,450 --> 01:10:52,660 language so you have you have these 1883 01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:54,460 different dialects different forms of 1884 01:10:58,500 --> 01:10:57,070 Semitic languages but the term that was 1885 01:11:00,750 --> 01:10:58,510 used in the ancient world for these 1886 01:11:03,330 --> 01:11:00,760 people is R mu and that word means 1887 01:11:05,820 --> 01:11:03,340 basically an Asiatic or a person who was 1888 01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:05,830 not part of the original Canaan or part 1889 01:11:11,730 --> 01:11:08,410 of Egypt now I know that with Joseph 1890 01:11:16,630 --> 01:11:11,740 there apparently was a pyramid tomb that 1891 01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:20,110 excuse me a little cough there my throat 1892 01:11:24,460 --> 01:11:22,250 there's the pyramid tomb there was a 1893 01:11:26,740 --> 01:11:24,470 statute that had a red hair with the 1894 01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:26,750 yellow skin and that was how easy attics 1895 01:11:30,850 --> 01:11:29,090 were were described it at at that point 1896 01:11:33,340 --> 01:11:30,860 in time 1897 01:11:35,260 --> 01:11:33,350 some of them were not all we can't say 1898 01:11:36,970 --> 01:11:35,270 that everybody who who was an Asiatic 1899 01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:36,980 had red hair a lot of them had dark 1900 01:11:41,650 --> 01:11:39,770 brown hair or black hair but there are 1901 01:11:43,360 --> 01:11:41,660 this particular individual and what you 1902 01:11:45,850 --> 01:11:43,370 can see of course is that no Egyptians 1903 01:11:47,470 --> 01:11:45,860 hunt red hair so it's it tends to sort 1904 01:11:49,180 --> 01:11:47,480 of bad process of elimination 1905 01:11:51,490 --> 01:11:49,190 a yellow skinned person with red hair 1906 01:11:53,170 --> 01:11:51,500 with a throw stick over his shoulders a 1907 01:11:56,140 --> 01:11:53,180 sceptre of office that throw stick is a 1908 01:11:57,790 --> 01:11:56,150 typical weapon of these people that you 1909 01:12:01,300 --> 01:11:57,800 use for hunting etc it's like a 1910 01:12:03,610 --> 01:12:01,310 boomerang and that very weapon is the 1911 01:12:05,620 --> 01:12:03,620 you a word or a sign that's used in 1912 01:12:08,140 --> 01:12:05,630 Egyptian hieroglyphs as a determinative 1913 01:12:10,330 --> 01:12:08,150 or a character reference to people who 1914 01:12:12,450 --> 01:12:10,340 were armored who were Asiatic so the 1915 01:12:15,790 --> 01:12:12,460 mere fact that he's holding this this 1916 01:12:18,100 --> 01:12:15,800 boomerang thing this this this throw 1917 01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:18,110 stick in his in his hand tells you that 1918 01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:19,840 he's an Asiatic he's not an Egyptian 1919 01:12:24,790 --> 01:12:22,970 however even though he's got yellow skin 1920 01:12:27,070 --> 01:12:24,800 and he's got red hair and he's got this 1921 01:12:28,780 --> 01:12:27,080 throw stick he's in a pitcher an 1922 01:12:30,730 --> 01:12:28,790 Egyptian tomb he's got an Egyptian tomb 1923 01:12:32,350 --> 01:12:30,740 which is not an Asiatic thing and he's 1924 01:12:35,170 --> 01:12:32,360 got an Egyptian Palace right next door 1925 01:12:38,020 --> 01:12:35,180 which again is not an Asiatic thing so 1926 01:12:41,050 --> 01:12:38,030 he seems to be a very high official of 1927 01:12:43,210 --> 01:12:41,060 state who is a foreigner who is working 1928 01:12:45,220 --> 01:12:43,220 for Pharaoh he lives in the northeast 1929 01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:45,230 out in the land of goshen he has a 1930 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:49,130 palace there he has a a tomb built for 1931 01:12:52,570 --> 01:12:50,570 him in the back garden of the palace 1932 01:12:54,190 --> 01:12:52,580 which is a pyramid tomb and on the front 1933 01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:54,200 of the pyramid tomb there is a chapel 1934 01:12:59,110 --> 01:12:56,570 built and inside the chapel they found 1935 01:13:01,450 --> 01:12:59,120 the smashed remains of this statue that 1936 01:13:03,100 --> 01:13:01,460 you're describing which was twice 1937 01:13:06,100 --> 01:13:03,110 life-size it was a colossal statue a 1938 01:13:08,650 --> 01:13:06,110 seated statue of this figure and so to 1939 01:13:11,020 --> 01:13:08,660 have a a pyramid tomb is first of all an 1940 01:13:12,700 --> 01:13:11,030 extraordinary honor because in this 1941 01:13:16,210 --> 01:13:12,710 period of the late 12th dynasty when 1942 01:13:17,860 --> 01:13:16,220 this this tomb was built only pharaohs 1943 01:13:19,810 --> 01:13:17,870 had pyramid tombs nobody else had 1944 01:13:22,480 --> 01:13:19,820 pyramid tombs no private individual or 1945 01:13:24,820 --> 01:13:22,490 commoner would do so he had a palace and 1946 01:13:26,950 --> 01:13:24,830 they almost Donner King's palaces so 1947 01:13:28,270 --> 01:13:26,960 it's a fabulous building you know that's 1948 01:13:30,940 --> 01:13:28,280 something that only a very very 1949 01:13:33,100 --> 01:13:30,950 high-ranking official would have and and 1950 01:13:35,620 --> 01:13:33,110 so annie has a colossal statue a 1951 01:13:38,140 --> 01:13:35,630 funerary statue which again nobody had 1952 01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:38,150 that in those days apart from Kings so 1953 01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:39,890 this guy is unique this guy is 1954 01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:40,970 extraordinary 1955 01:13:44,770 --> 01:13:43,760 he'd been honored by the Pharaoh to such 1956 01:13:47,049 --> 01:13:44,780 a degree that he'd been 1957 01:13:49,529 --> 01:13:47,059 in a royal tomb effectively and then 1958 01:13:52,299 --> 01:13:49,539 when they when I examined this statue 1959 01:13:55,390 --> 01:13:52,309 the back shoulder of the remains of the 1960 01:13:57,549 --> 01:13:55,400 upper part of the torso I noticed that 1961 01:13:59,649 --> 01:13:57,559 there was colored colored paint left on 1962 01:14:01,419 --> 01:13:59,659 on the statue because it had been in the 1963 01:14:04,180 --> 01:14:01,429 ground all these years for thousands of 1964 01:14:08,620 --> 01:14:04,190 years it preserved the color and it was 1965 01:14:10,779 --> 01:14:08,630 a coat of stripes in multi colors with a 1966 01:14:13,299 --> 01:14:10,789 with a collar which was painted also 1967 01:14:15,490 --> 01:14:13,309 multi colors so this guy with red hair 1968 01:14:16,959 --> 01:14:15,500 and yellow skin who was a high official 1969 01:14:19,810 --> 01:14:16,969 of state given a palace and a royal 1970 01:14:21,879 --> 01:14:19,820 burial had a coat of many colors on now 1971 01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:21,889 there aren't that many people in history 1972 01:14:25,870 --> 01:14:24,170 that we know of with that combination on 1973 01:14:28,029 --> 01:14:25,880 the one we can think of immediately 1974 01:14:31,540 --> 01:14:28,039 Joseph with his coat of many colors who 1975 01:14:33,939 --> 01:14:31,550 was a high Vizier of Egypt honored by 1976 01:14:35,799 --> 01:14:33,949 Pharaoh and retired obviously in the 1977 01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:35,809 place where he he'd settled his brothers 1978 01:14:38,919 --> 01:14:37,610 and father in the land of goshen that's 1979 01:14:41,770 --> 01:14:38,929 exactly where this palace a tomb were 1980 01:14:44,109 --> 01:14:41,780 found and again this is probably not 1981 01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:44,119 going to a problem guessing there 1982 01:14:46,950 --> 01:14:45,650 probably weren't any Andrew Lloyd Webber 1983 01:14:52,060 --> 01:14:46,960 songs that were sung in the funeral 1984 01:14:54,220 --> 01:14:52,070 unfortunately not quite the case but it 1985 01:14:55,569 --> 01:14:54,230 just goes to show that how a tradition 1986 01:14:57,520 --> 01:14:55,579 can carry through to modern times 1987 01:14:59,500 --> 01:14:57,530 doesn't it that is the thing we remember 1988 01:15:01,990 --> 01:14:59,510 about Joseph more than anything else is 1989 01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:02,000 the multicolored coat and there he is in 1990 01:15:04,959 --> 01:15:03,170 this tomb will be wearing his 1991 01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:04,969 multicolored coat is quite extraordinary 1992 01:15:12,549 --> 01:15:09,130 now the Templar I should say the burial 1993 01:15:16,990 --> 01:15:12,559 area of a virus that has been uncovered 1994 01:15:18,399 --> 01:15:17,000 by the tallest BTEC yeah this happened 1995 01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:18,409 recently this hasn't been something that 1996 01:15:22,629 --> 01:15:20,210 that's come out within the last twenty 1997 01:15:23,859 --> 01:15:22,639 years has it I I know it's a it's a bit 1998 01:15:25,540 --> 01:15:23,869 earlier than that it's a little bit 1999 01:15:27,279 --> 01:15:25,550 early but not much I mean in terms of 2000 01:15:28,930 --> 01:15:27,289 archaeology everything's recent and you 2001 01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:28,940 know I mean we've only been doing it for 2002 01:15:35,470 --> 01:15:31,610 about 200 years at the most but the tomb 2003 01:15:38,819 --> 01:15:35,480 was found in their 70s 1970s but the 2004 01:15:42,459 --> 01:15:38,829 attribute ation of it to the biblical 2005 01:15:44,709 --> 01:15:42,469 Israelites is something very new be tuck 2006 01:15:48,100 --> 01:15:44,719 himself didn't recognize what he'd got 2007 01:15:50,350 --> 01:15:48,110 as being Joseph and the settlement of 2008 01:15:52,209 --> 01:15:50,360 the Hebrews there mainly because he 2009 01:15:54,910 --> 01:15:52,219 adheres to the concept that Rama seized 2010 01:15:57,310 --> 01:15:54,920 a second or later is the time of the 2011 01:15:58,840 --> 01:15:57,320 exodus so he can't possibly think about 2012 01:16:01,280 --> 01:15:58,850 his middle bronze 2013 01:16:03,590 --> 01:16:01,290 excavations in enviros can be add 2014 01:16:05,510 --> 01:16:03,600 connected at all to the Israelites story 2015 01:16:07,460 --> 01:16:05,520 because there's the separated by 400 2016 01:16:08,990 --> 01:16:07,470 years so there's no way that you can 2017 01:16:10,280 --> 01:16:09,000 think of it in that way if you're 2018 01:16:13,460 --> 01:16:10,290 sticking to the conventional dating 2019 01:16:14,900 --> 01:16:13,470 system so he calls the Macy attics it 2020 01:16:16,610 --> 01:16:14,910 was me who came along and then said 2021 01:16:18,830 --> 01:16:16,620 we'll hang on a minute you know if the 2022 01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:18,840 timelines wrong this synchronizes 2023 01:16:23,180 --> 01:16:20,370 correctly with the time of Joseph and 2024 01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:23,190 the sahjhan and and Moses then this all 2025 01:16:26,810 --> 01:16:25,170 fits together nicely but of course I'm 2026 01:16:29,060 --> 01:16:26,820 up against it with the conventional 2027 01:16:31,070 --> 01:16:29,070 thinking because most Egyptologists it 2028 01:16:32,750 --> 01:16:31,080 has to be admitted aren't prepared to 2029 01:16:35,060 --> 01:16:32,760 change their timeline they're not in the 2030 01:16:36,380 --> 01:16:35,070 business of doing that and so it's going 2031 01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:36,390 to be a little bit of like continental 2032 01:16:41,630 --> 01:16:37,770 drift there it's going to take you know 2033 01:16:42,860 --> 01:16:41,640 a generation or more before the theory 2034 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:42,870 is either going to be accepted or 2035 01:16:46,910 --> 01:16:44,130 rejected it's not going to happen 2036 01:16:48,830 --> 01:16:46,920 overnight now I know but within patterns 2037 01:16:50,450 --> 01:16:48,840 of evidence there are actually like he 2038 01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:50,460 did say on camera that the connection 2039 01:16:55,850 --> 01:16:53,610 between mmm the peoples who had settled 2040 01:16:57,530 --> 01:16:55,860 there and you don't let's say them being 2041 01:17:01,400 --> 01:16:57,540 Israelis who it's settled there is quite 2042 01:17:04,430 --> 01:17:01,410 weak based based upon your just based 2043 01:17:06,380 --> 01:17:04,440 upon that 1250 BC chronology that he was 2044 01:17:08,540 --> 01:17:06,390 following yeah 2045 01:17:10,690 --> 01:17:08,550 it's slightly more complicated now 2046 01:17:13,340 --> 01:17:10,700 because Batak is of the opinion that 2047 01:17:16,430 --> 01:17:13,350 oral tradition cannot survive more than 2048 01:17:17,720 --> 01:17:16,440 copy two or three generations I've don't 2049 01:17:20,230 --> 01:17:17,730 agree with that at all I think 2050 01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:20,240 oral tradition is extremely tenacious 2051 01:17:25,850 --> 01:17:23,280 you can find for instance in the Balkans 2052 01:17:28,310 --> 01:17:25,860 you can find singers who sing the 2053 01:17:30,260 --> 01:17:28,320 stories going back thousands of years of 2054 01:17:32,150 --> 01:17:30,270 their history I mean and and home is 2055 01:17:34,700 --> 01:17:32,160 another good example of the type of 2056 01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:34,710 thing that the people learned stories by 2057 01:17:39,740 --> 01:17:37,050 rote and they perform them and sing them 2058 01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:39,750 and they in the form of poetry whatever 2059 01:17:45,200 --> 01:17:42,690 it is so oral tradition is very powerful 2060 01:17:47,450 --> 01:17:45,210 and I think that his problem is that he 2061 01:17:49,610 --> 01:17:47,460 can't see an oral tradition going back 2062 01:17:51,650 --> 01:17:49,620 to the time of the late 12th dynasty 2063 01:17:54,290 --> 01:17:51,660 when we've got this this pyramid of 2064 01:17:56,420 --> 01:17:54,300 Pallas being the story of Joseph that 2065 01:17:58,790 --> 01:17:56,430 carried through orally through the 2066 01:18:01,520 --> 01:17:58,800 traditions until the writing down of the 2067 01:18:03,490 --> 01:18:01,530 Torah however of course he doesn't 2068 01:18:06,170 --> 01:18:03,500 accept the fact that Moses could write 2069 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:06,180 so I mean you know so he's not in the 2070 01:18:09,140 --> 01:18:07,650 business of saying well maybe the world 2071 01:18:11,450 --> 01:18:09,150 written records going back to the time 2072 01:18:12,939 --> 01:18:11,460 of Moses he's not in that business so he 2073 01:18:14,709 --> 01:18:12,949 has to rely on oral today 2074 01:18:17,290 --> 01:18:14,719 and he says that also that she cannot 2075 01:18:19,689 --> 01:18:17,300 survive for four or five centuries it 2076 01:18:22,300 --> 01:18:19,699 coming from my hem my family is actually 2077 01:18:25,419 --> 01:18:22,310 from the Balkans believe it or not right 2078 01:18:29,140 --> 01:18:25,429 so and my father used to actually sing 2079 01:18:31,090 --> 01:18:29,150 folk songs background so he yes the the 2080 01:18:33,880 --> 01:18:31,100 folk songs that they sing now and even 2081 01:18:37,990 --> 01:18:33,890 that are still popular now and I'm DJing 2082 01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:38,000 a a folk folk dance fundraiser the 2083 01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:39,890 Saturday all right 2084 01:18:42,790 --> 01:18:41,570 I can I can tell you that the songs that 2085 01:18:45,310 --> 01:18:42,800 I'm going to be playing even though they 2086 01:18:46,990 --> 01:18:45,320 are recent recordings of those songs 2087 01:18:48,580 --> 01:18:47,000 those same songs are still two-three 2088 01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:48,590 hundred years old or older yeah they 2089 01:18:53,169 --> 01:18:50,770 stretch there they can't do and and and 2090 01:18:55,030 --> 01:18:53,179 look you don't know if it's a story as 2091 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:55,040 as something as dramatic as the Exodus 2092 01:18:59,260 --> 01:18:57,170 story you know that's sealed in the 2093 01:19:00,220 --> 01:18:59,270 cultural memory of a people you know 2094 01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:00,230 they're not I mean they're going to 2095 01:19:03,790 --> 01:19:01,730 elaborate upon it they're gonna change 2096 01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:03,800 it they're going to a grand a certain 2097 01:19:08,229 --> 01:19:06,290 aspect of the story but the basic knots 2098 01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:08,239 and bolts of the story will be 2099 01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:10,010 remembered passed on from generation to 2100 01:19:14,620 --> 01:19:12,290 generation that is what the Passover 2101 01:19:17,110 --> 01:19:14,630 celebration is all about every single 2102 01:19:19,570 --> 01:19:17,120 year Jewish people celebrate the 2103 01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:19,580 departure from Egypt of the Israelite 2104 01:19:23,709 --> 01:19:21,530 and that's been going on for thousands 2105 01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:23,719 of years that's why it's retained in 2106 01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:25,250 their culture because they have rituals 2107 01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:27,530 that remind them and they read passages 2108 01:19:32,410 --> 01:19:30,530 from Exodus at Passover to remind them 2109 01:19:35,770 --> 01:19:32,420 of what happened all those thousands of 2110 01:19:36,970 --> 01:19:35,780 years ago in I know at least I know the 2111 01:19:38,910 --> 01:19:36,980 answer from this from the amount of 2112 01:19:41,260 --> 01:19:38,920 documentaries that I've watched on on 2113 01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:41,270 Egyptian history some of our listeners 2114 01:19:45,850 --> 01:19:43,850 may not necessarily know why it knowing 2115 01:19:49,000 --> 01:19:45,860 that the Egyptians had carved everything 2116 01:19:54,850 --> 01:19:49,010 on walls how far is the history why is 2117 01:19:56,860 --> 01:19:54,860 there no record of the Exodus well apart 2118 01:19:59,950 --> 01:19:56,870 from Manito which I mentioned earlier on 2119 01:20:03,300 --> 01:19:59,960 and this this mentioned there and you 2120 01:20:07,150 --> 01:20:03,310 you would not expect to be honest 2121 01:20:08,740 --> 01:20:07,160 propagandizing defeats it's like you 2122 01:20:10,660 --> 01:20:08,750 know you don't really expect from to 2123 01:20:13,180 --> 01:20:10,670 start telling everybody in the world how 2124 01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:13,190 how how terrible everything is in 2125 01:20:16,689 --> 01:20:14,690 America at the moment or is going to be 2126 01:20:18,280 --> 01:20:16,699 in the future the the thing that happens 2127 01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:18,290 on the walls of Egyptian temples is they 2128 01:20:23,220 --> 01:20:20,090 commemorate victories that commemorate 2129 01:20:25,060 --> 01:20:23,230 great deeds they they make heroic 2130 01:20:26,410 --> 01:20:25,070 inscriptions they're not going to tell 2131 01:20:26,830 --> 01:20:26,420 you about defeats they're not going to 2132 01:20:28,450 --> 01:20:26,840 tell you 2133 01:20:30,220 --> 01:20:28,460 the Egyptian army were destroyed in the 2134 01:20:31,960 --> 01:20:30,230 amsoft the sea of reeds they're not 2135 01:20:33,610 --> 01:20:31,970 going to tell you any of that because 2136 01:20:35,290 --> 01:20:33,620 that would just be silly to do that 2137 01:20:37,420 --> 01:20:35,300 nobody does that that's not good proper 2138 01:20:40,210 --> 01:20:37,430 propaganda so you would not expect 2139 01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:40,220 records of that type of thing however we 2140 01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:42,170 do have a document we do have something 2141 01:20:46,150 --> 01:20:44,810 called the Apollo papyrus or the what's 2142 01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:46,160 called the admonitions of an Egyptian 2143 01:20:50,590 --> 01:20:48,890 sage which was probably written down at 2144 01:20:52,210 --> 01:20:50,600 about the same time about the 13th 2145 01:20:54,190 --> 01:20:52,220 dynasty we think it was written down all 2146 01:20:56,830 --> 01:20:54,200 for the first time or slightly later 2147 01:20:59,440 --> 01:20:56,840 than that recording a time when Egypt 2148 01:21:01,510 --> 01:20:59,450 was completely overthrown where there 2149 01:21:04,080 --> 01:21:01,520 was terrible tragedy in Egypt awful 2150 01:21:07,390 --> 01:21:04,090 stuff the river turned into blood 2151 01:21:09,820 --> 01:21:07,400 children were dying people were starving 2152 01:21:11,710 --> 01:21:09,830 the crops were being destroyed darkness 2153 01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:11,720 fell upon the land all these things you 2154 01:21:17,260 --> 01:21:13,730 hear about in the ten plagues are there 2155 01:21:19,300 --> 01:21:17,270 in this papyrus so it looks like there 2156 01:21:20,980 --> 01:21:19,310 is a record but it's not a monumental 2157 01:21:22,290 --> 01:21:20,990 record of it on the walls of the temples 2158 01:21:27,010 --> 01:21:22,300 because they would never do that 2159 01:21:28,450 --> 01:21:27,020 now this papyrus sounds something like 2160 01:21:30,820 --> 01:21:28,460 eight will be being a historical 2161 01:21:32,140 --> 01:21:30,830 document itself and knowing that there 2162 01:21:33,910 --> 01:21:32,150 are many things that could have happened 2163 01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:33,920 around the world at that time that could 2164 01:21:38,530 --> 01:21:36,650 have cost this type of Cataclysm cost is 2165 01:21:40,360 --> 01:21:38,540 the it has there been any indication 2166 01:21:43,000 --> 01:21:40,370 that this is may have been caused by 2167 01:21:45,610 --> 01:21:43,010 let's say a volcanic eruption or meteor 2168 01:21:47,710 --> 01:21:45,620 impact of any kind within the area well 2169 01:21:49,510 --> 01:21:47,720 volcanic eruption is certainly a 2170 01:21:50,980 --> 01:21:49,520 possibility but it's not the Thira 2171 01:21:53,620 --> 01:21:50,990 eruption that you're thinking of it's 2172 01:21:55,300 --> 01:21:53,630 not the santorini blowout middle Bronze 2173 01:21:56,830 --> 01:21:55,310 Age blow that's a different event but 2174 01:21:58,720 --> 01:21:56,840 that doesn't send me to say that there's 2175 01:22:00,820 --> 01:21:58,730 not another volcano somewhere on the 2176 01:22:02,440 --> 01:22:00,830 planet which has caused dust to get 2177 01:22:05,230 --> 01:22:02,450 input to the atmosphere which darkens 2178 01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:05,240 the sky and results in crop failure that 2179 01:22:09,100 --> 01:22:07,010 is it perfectly possible as an 2180 01:22:11,110 --> 01:22:09,110 explanation for this who knows 2181 01:22:12,940 --> 01:22:11,120 I mean religious people would say it was 2182 01:22:15,340 --> 01:22:12,950 the miraculous it was the you know it's 2183 01:22:17,350 --> 01:22:15,350 the work of God but there are other 2184 01:22:19,840 --> 01:22:17,360 mechanisms to explain these things so 2185 01:22:22,810 --> 01:22:19,850 yes there is entirely possible that 2186 01:22:24,910 --> 01:22:22,820 climate change was was was brought about 2187 01:22:26,950 --> 01:22:24,920 by a volcanic eruption somewhere but 2188 01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:26,960 it's not the Santorini theory eruption 2189 01:22:32,380 --> 01:22:29,210 that's a different date okay so we can't 2190 01:22:34,920 --> 01:22:32,390 use that one to to explain it however I 2191 01:22:37,810 --> 01:22:34,930 mean there there are some of those 2192 01:22:38,980 --> 01:22:37,820 effects if you like of the ten place it 2193 01:22:41,230 --> 01:22:38,990 can be explained in different ways I 2194 01:22:42,490 --> 01:22:41,240 mean that the river turning into blood 2195 01:22:45,100 --> 01:22:42,500 nothing to do with a volcano for 2196 01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:45,110 instance the frogs coming out of the 2197 01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:47,330 water the the boils all those things had 2198 01:22:51,460 --> 01:22:48,650 nothing to do with the volcano the 2199 01:22:53,050 --> 01:22:51,470 darkness might be those sorts of things 2200 01:22:55,150 --> 01:22:53,060 right at the end of the ten plagues is a 2201 01:22:57,100 --> 01:22:55,160 possibility but the earlier plagues have 2202 01:22:59,710 --> 01:22:57,110 nothing to do with volcanic activity as 2203 01:23:03,280 --> 01:22:59,720 far as I could see and what what would 2204 01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:03,290 you tribute it to who know you got it 2205 01:23:10,210 --> 01:23:06,410 well first of all you've got to accept 2206 01:23:12,520 --> 01:23:10,220 they happened haven't you I mean just 2207 01:23:14,110 --> 01:23:12,530 because it's in the in the story of 2208 01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:14,120 Exodus doesn't mean those plagues are 2209 01:23:18,730 --> 01:23:16,610 anything but literary invention I mean 2210 01:23:20,470 --> 01:23:18,740 that's one possibility as I said to you 2211 01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:20,480 before I mean you you can take the nuts 2212 01:23:25,180 --> 01:23:22,370 and bolts of the story which is why 2213 01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:25,190 population a Semite coming to Egypt they 2214 01:23:30,340 --> 01:23:27,170 expand dramatically they are enslaved 2215 01:23:31,570 --> 01:23:30,350 they leave Egypt they settle in the 2216 01:23:34,270 --> 01:23:31,580 promised land and they burn all the 2217 01:23:36,340 --> 01:23:34,280 cities there those are tangible things 2218 01:23:37,870 --> 01:23:36,350 you can grab hold of as an archaeologist 2219 01:23:40,690 --> 01:23:37,880 you can look at the evidence in the 2220 01:23:42,940 --> 01:23:40,700 ground I can't dig up evidence of 2221 01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:42,950 miracles that's not my job to do that 2222 01:23:49,300 --> 01:23:45,650 nor will ever find one you know I can't 2223 01:23:51,670 --> 01:23:49,310 prove that the the yam soft sea parted 2224 01:23:53,470 --> 01:23:51,680 through archaeology and there's no way I 2225 01:23:55,660 --> 01:23:53,480 can do that so I want to stick with the 2226 01:23:58,480 --> 01:23:55,670 the things I can't s not the miraculous 2227 01:24:01,270 --> 01:23:58,490 so you'll never going to find evidence 2228 01:24:04,750 --> 01:24:01,280 in archaeology from $3,000 years ago of 2229 01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:04,760 boils or of frogs or of rivers turning 2230 01:24:09,250 --> 01:24:07,250 red no but again when it comes to 2231 01:24:11,290 --> 01:24:09,260 archaeology the history of me being able 2232 01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:11,300 to actually graduate college to some 2233 01:24:16,570 --> 01:24:13,010 people is somewhat of a surprise but I 2234 01:24:17,980 --> 01:24:16,580 was actually right some people attribute 2235 01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:17,990 that to a miracle some people attribute 2236 01:24:21,580 --> 01:24:20,090 that to hard work or something else so I 2237 01:24:23,350 --> 01:24:21,590 can understand how that dichotomy 2238 01:24:26,410 --> 01:24:23,360 between the two can be difficult for 2239 01:24:27,760 --> 01:24:26,420 some individuals to to I you know to be 2240 01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:27,770 able to wrap their heads around or say 2241 01:24:32,050 --> 01:24:29,210 no it's not a miracle it's actually 2242 01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:32,060 archaeological evidence now I know that 2243 01:24:35,410 --> 01:24:33,170 there are some things within that 2244 01:24:38,470 --> 01:24:35,420 history that can kind of link the two 2245 01:24:40,210 --> 01:24:38,480 between the historical Exodus period to 2246 01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:40,220 the real life and I know that there are 2247 01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:41,930 certain names that have been found 2248 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:43,610 within documents that actually do appear 2249 01:24:48,930 --> 01:24:47,570 in the Bible yes that's certainly - and 2250 01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:48,940 there's no reason why they shouldn't 2251 01:24:53,170 --> 01:24:51,770 just like anything I mean you know how 2252 01:24:54,970 --> 01:24:53,180 many David's are there in the pond the 2253 01:24:57,729 --> 01:24:54,980 planet plenty I'm sure 2254 01:24:59,800 --> 01:24:57,739 so yes we have King David himself has 2255 01:25:01,360 --> 01:24:59,810 now turned up in the archaeological 2256 01:25:03,670 --> 01:25:01,370 record although it's not him physically 2257 01:25:05,140 --> 01:25:03,680 specifically it's the house of David in 2258 01:25:07,090 --> 01:25:05,150 other words the dynasty of David has 2259 01:25:10,180 --> 01:25:07,100 turned up on a particular stealer from 2260 01:25:11,860 --> 01:25:10,190 tail down yeah it seems to parently to 2261 01:25:14,440 --> 01:25:11,870 be also mentioned in the mobile stone 2262 01:25:16,300 --> 01:25:14,450 which is in from Transjordan so there 2263 01:25:18,790 --> 01:25:16,310 are possibly two mentions of King David 2264 01:25:21,430 --> 01:25:18,800 or his dynasty certainly Kings like Ahab 2265 01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:21,440 who come later on in the divided monarch 2266 01:25:26,260 --> 01:25:23,930 appeared are mentioned in Assyrian texts 2267 01:25:28,660 --> 01:25:26,270 and there are many kings of the of the 2268 01:25:30,070 --> 01:25:28,670 period of Ahab in that time the divided 2269 01:25:32,350 --> 01:25:30,080 molecular are mentioned in Assyrian 2270 01:25:35,620 --> 01:25:32,360 records we have no record of a Solomon 2271 01:25:37,780 --> 01:25:35,630 at the moment has turned up yet and of 2272 01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:37,790 course many of the characters in judges 2273 01:25:44,170 --> 01:25:39,650 were not wouldn't expect those to really 2274 01:25:45,970 --> 01:25:44,180 turn up but we have it seems we have one 2275 01:25:48,670 --> 01:25:45,980 or two characters who can be equated 2276 01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:48,680 with the time of King Saul who turn up 2277 01:25:53,410 --> 01:25:50,570 in the Amarna letters are famous are 2278 01:25:55,120 --> 01:25:53,420 Connaughton again turning up so there 2279 01:25:57,280 --> 01:25:55,130 are there are some names there that I 2280 01:25:59,260 --> 01:25:57,290 think are related to the time of King 2281 01:26:00,970 --> 01:25:59,270 Saul the people around that reign period 2282 01:26:04,150 --> 01:26:00,980 of course was the first king of Israel 2283 01:26:06,880 --> 01:26:04,160 and of course we have the possibility of 2284 01:26:08,140 --> 01:26:06,890 Joseph himself although in his 2285 01:26:10,330 --> 01:26:08,150 particular case is a little bit 2286 01:26:13,570 --> 01:26:10,340 difficult because he came to Egypt as a 2287 01:26:15,460 --> 01:26:13,580 slave he then rose to power as the 2288 01:26:17,590 --> 01:26:15,470 second most important in the land after 2289 01:26:20,290 --> 01:26:17,600 Pharaoh and he was given an Egyptian 2290 01:26:21,220 --> 01:26:20,300 name so you have to find the Egyptian 2291 01:26:22,570 --> 01:26:21,230 name for him really 2292 01:26:25,090 --> 01:26:22,580 that's what will be in the records not 2293 01:26:28,840 --> 01:26:25,100 his Semitic name and we do think we've 2294 01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:28,850 found that his name in the Bible the 2295 01:26:31,500 --> 01:26:30,410 Egyptian image count the bible's goes up 2296 01:26:33,400 --> 01:26:31,510 enough patent eya 2297 01:26:34,770 --> 01:26:33,410 okay you want to try saying that when 2298 01:26:37,960 --> 01:26:34,780 you've had three or four whiskey's 2299 01:26:40,330 --> 01:26:37,970 suffer enough paranoia Zafar now is 2300 01:26:42,340 --> 01:26:40,340 actually a distorted version the Hebrew 2301 01:26:44,740 --> 01:26:42,350 of Jeddah 1/f which was probably 2302 01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:44,750 pronounced not enough which means he was 2303 01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:46,970 called and what we find is we have the 2304 01:26:51,820 --> 01:26:48,770 Semitic slave lists in this period 2305 01:26:55,020 --> 01:26:51,830 where's that enough or he was call this 2306 01:26:57,340 --> 01:26:55,030 how they always named people it's like 2307 01:27:00,310 --> 01:26:57,350 African slaves were brought into the 2308 01:27:02,350 --> 01:27:00,320 cotton fields of south of the united 2309 01:27:04,060 --> 01:27:02,360 states are given English names they 2310 01:27:06,459 --> 01:27:04,070 don't keep their African names they call 2311 01:27:07,810 --> 01:27:06,469 George or whatever so that the same 2312 01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:07,820 thing happened with the slaves in Egypt 2313 01:27:10,089 --> 01:27:08,449 they 2314 01:27:11,830 --> 01:27:10,099 lost their Semitic name so you have such 2315 01:27:13,959 --> 01:27:11,840 a such a name he was called and they 2316 01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:13,969 given an Egyptian name so that enough 2317 01:27:18,430 --> 01:27:16,489 means he was called and then Pattaya is 2318 01:27:21,459 --> 01:27:18,440 actually the Egyptian name that Joseph 2319 01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:21,469 is given so patent iya mean actually and 2320 01:27:25,949 --> 01:27:23,570 they are Nia is how the Egyptians 2321 01:27:28,390 --> 01:27:25,959 pronounce the word ankh the sign of life 2322 01:27:31,330 --> 01:27:28,400 okay so some part is the definite 2323 01:27:33,459 --> 01:27:31,340 article so Pat Anaya means the one who 2324 01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:33,469 lives because Angie's the sign of life 2325 01:27:37,930 --> 01:27:36,170 okay so and that's quite an appropriate 2326 01:27:39,850 --> 01:27:37,940 name given to Joseph because if you 2327 01:27:42,399 --> 01:27:39,860 remember rightly his father Jacob thinks 2328 01:27:44,290 --> 01:27:42,409 he's been killed his brothers when they 2329 01:27:45,939 --> 01:27:44,300 throw him down the well they take his 2330 01:27:47,979 --> 01:27:45,949 multicolored coat that he's been given 2331 01:27:49,180 --> 01:27:47,989 by his father they cover it in blood and 2332 01:27:51,459 --> 01:27:49,190 they take it back to the father and they 2333 01:27:53,259 --> 01:27:51,469 tell him that his son is his favorite 2334 01:27:55,419 --> 01:27:53,269 son has been killed by a wild beast and 2335 01:27:58,270 --> 01:27:55,429 so his father thinks he's dead 2336 01:28:01,870 --> 01:27:58,280 and then donkeys years later when the 2337 01:28:04,390 --> 01:28:01,880 Israelites go into into Egypt because of 2338 01:28:07,000 --> 01:28:04,400 the famine they found Vizier the Vizier 2339 01:28:09,189 --> 01:28:07,010 Joseph and there is in his grandeur okay 2340 01:28:11,199 --> 01:28:09,199 and Jacob suddenly discovers his sons 2341 01:28:13,899 --> 01:28:11,209 alive so what an appropriate name that 2342 01:28:16,089 --> 01:28:13,909 Pharaoh gives him the one who lives so 2343 01:28:17,890 --> 01:28:16,099 that actually makes a lot of sense so if 2344 01:28:21,489 --> 01:28:17,900 if he's name is the one who lives pat 2345 01:28:23,589 --> 01:28:21,499 angkor pattaya then he's most likely the 2346 01:28:26,739 --> 01:28:23,599 Vizier of Egypt at the end of the 12th 2347 01:28:28,180 --> 01:28:26,749 dynasty who was called the overseer of 2348 01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:28,190 the fields or otherwise the Minister of 2349 01:28:33,009 --> 01:28:30,650 Agriculture remember Joseph job was to 2350 01:28:34,569 --> 01:28:33,019 gather in the grain and and to then 2351 01:28:37,270 --> 01:28:34,579 distribute it out to the people during 2352 01:28:38,830 --> 01:28:37,280 the famine years and and also the the 2353 01:28:41,229 --> 01:28:38,840 granaries are actually named after this 2354 01:28:42,969 --> 01:28:41,239 character and we read his name in 2355 01:28:45,879 --> 01:28:42,979 Egyptian as an qu which is the same as 2356 01:28:48,160 --> 01:28:45,889 an F is the same name so he's the very 2357 01:28:50,290 --> 01:28:48,170 famous Vizier he deals with all the 2358 01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:50,300 agriculture of the land he builds the 2359 01:28:54,219 --> 01:28:52,010 granaries and that's exactly the story 2360 01:28:57,009 --> 01:28:54,229 of joseph who gathers together the grain 2361 01:28:58,779 --> 01:28:57,019 he'd he develops a state system of 2362 01:29:00,640 --> 01:28:58,789 gathering grain and redistribution after 2363 01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:00,650 grown it in the famine years so he fits 2364 01:29:04,660 --> 01:29:02,090 very well so we may well have found 2365 01:29:07,689 --> 01:29:04,670 joseph in the egyptian historical 2366 01:29:11,350 --> 01:29:07,699 records now this at least also does give 2367 01:29:12,219 --> 01:29:11,360 me an explanation for the band names 2368 01:29:15,759 --> 01:29:12,229 from when you were younger 2369 01:29:17,620 --> 01:29:15,769 so this yeah well we're delving into the 2370 01:29:18,850 --> 01:29:17,630 musical side of it okay well I just 2371 01:29:20,529 --> 01:29:18,860 wanted to be able to comment because 2372 01:29:21,879 --> 01:29:20,539 you'd mentioned that in signs of life 2373 01:29:22,279 --> 01:29:21,889 I'm like oh this actually makes sense 2374 01:29:29,060 --> 01:29:22,289 now 2375 01:29:31,339 --> 01:29:29,070 sorry no it's not you see that's my 2376 01:29:32,870 --> 01:29:31,349 child up bringing in when I was into 2377 01:29:35,180 --> 01:29:32,880 Egyptology when I was a kid and then 2378 01:29:36,680 --> 01:29:35,190 when I formed my first band at the age 2379 01:29:38,089 --> 01:29:36,690 of sixteen of course the first thing I 2380 01:29:41,149 --> 01:29:38,099 was going to do was give it an Egyptian 2381 01:29:42,470 --> 01:29:41,159 name so the very first band I had was 2382 01:29:43,970 --> 01:29:42,480 called the sign of life and then a 2383 01:29:46,069 --> 01:29:43,980 second band I had was called Anki which 2384 01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:46,079 is the Gypsy version of Santa life so 2385 01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:47,730 that was you know that was in my teen 2386 01:29:52,310 --> 01:29:50,130 years and yeah that's my influences if a 2387 01:29:53,839 --> 01:29:52,320 lot of the songs that we recorded in 2388 01:29:56,540 --> 01:29:53,849 those days and we performed life were 2389 01:29:58,430 --> 01:29:56,550 actually named after Egyptian gods or 2390 01:29:58,850 --> 01:29:58,440 Egyptian kings or whatever so it's very 2391 01:30:05,959 --> 01:29:58,860 weird 2392 01:30:08,060 --> 01:30:05,969 rock with Egyptian names and stuff 2393 01:30:09,890 --> 01:30:08,070 evolved the lyrics very strange stuff it 2394 01:30:12,229 --> 01:30:09,900 actually reminds me a little bit of the 2395 01:30:13,790 --> 01:30:12,239 band sunspot who also are the whole or 2396 01:30:15,770 --> 01:30:13,800 two of the people in the band are the 2397 01:30:17,569 --> 01:30:15,780 hosts of this one podcast called see you 2398 01:30:20,020 --> 01:30:17,579 on the other side and a lot of their 2399 01:30:23,089 --> 01:30:20,030 songs are actually based on paranormal 2400 01:30:26,089 --> 01:30:23,099 experiences from other people or themes 2401 01:30:27,979 --> 01:30:26,099 and they they bring that entire you know 2402 01:30:29,660 --> 01:30:27,989 the entire idea of the unknown into it 2403 01:30:30,950 --> 01:30:29,670 within their songs so that they carry 2404 01:30:32,569 --> 01:30:30,960 that theme throughout a lot of it and 2405 01:30:33,229 --> 01:30:32,579 they're quite popular within within 2406 01:30:35,899 --> 01:30:33,239 Wisconsin 2407 01:30:37,790 --> 01:30:35,909 alright so that's that that's cool that 2408 01:30:39,560 --> 01:30:37,800 you do that it's not you're not the only 2409 01:30:41,419 --> 01:30:39,570 person who has done that and I know that 2410 01:30:45,799 --> 01:30:41,429 there are others who carry that theme 2411 01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:45,809 forward right and with regards to themes 2412 01:30:48,890 --> 01:30:47,489 and speaking of themes I know that one 2413 01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:48,900 of the themes of the show is to at least 2414 01:30:53,990 --> 01:30:52,320 question you know standards the way the 2415 01:30:57,919 --> 01:30:54,000 way that's people look at things and 2416 01:31:00,649 --> 01:30:57,929 most of your rock has been I should say 2417 01:31:03,470 --> 01:31:00,659 one of your main opponents within your 2418 01:31:05,540 --> 01:31:03,480 theory has been kenneth the kitchen yeah 2419 01:31:08,689 --> 01:31:05,550 your work actually rewrites completely 2420 01:31:10,609 --> 01:31:08,699 if it's accepted now it is now 2421 01:31:12,319 --> 01:31:10,619 considering this affects his work do you 2422 01:31:13,850 --> 01:31:12,329 think that this is more towards his idea 2423 01:31:16,459 --> 01:31:13,860 of ego and is this something that is 2424 01:31:18,470 --> 01:31:16,469 prevalent within Egyptology or 2425 01:31:20,930 --> 01:31:18,480 archeology as a whole or is it a matter 2426 01:31:24,049 --> 01:31:20,940 of you know him believing that it's the 2427 01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:24,059 Swain he has the evidence for it I think 2428 01:31:27,890 --> 01:31:26,010 it we've got to be careful we don't sort 2429 01:31:30,350 --> 01:31:27,900 of liked our people too much with the 2430 01:31:32,750 --> 01:31:30,360 brush because these guys have spent 2431 01:31:35,299 --> 01:31:32,760 their entire careers trying to explain 2432 01:31:36,140 --> 01:31:35,309 the way the problems of Egyptian 2433 01:31:38,479 --> 01:31:36,150 chronology and 2434 01:31:40,939 --> 01:31:38,489 Egyptian history and they built their 2435 01:31:43,100 --> 01:31:40,949 careers on apologetics effectively I 2436 01:31:47,140 --> 01:31:43,110 mean they they've constructed a history 2437 01:31:49,070 --> 01:31:47,150 that is full of difficulties and they 2438 01:31:51,340 --> 01:31:49,080 spend a lot of time and there's some 2439 01:31:53,810 --> 01:31:51,350 some professors have spent their entire 2440 01:31:55,700 --> 01:31:53,820 careers writing about the dark ages of 2441 01:31:57,260 --> 01:31:55,710 Greece for instance which in this new 2442 01:31:59,840 --> 01:31:57,270 chronology completely wiped out with a 2443 01:32:01,580 --> 01:31:59,850 stroke of a brush because those dark 2444 01:32:04,100 --> 01:32:01,590 eight had created by a false Egyptian 2445 01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:04,110 chronology so and and they're very very 2446 01:32:08,360 --> 01:32:06,810 brilliant men and I like them greatly I 2447 01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:08,370 mean I was taught by a number of them 2448 01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:10,770 you know that they are real you know 2449 01:32:18,110 --> 01:32:13,830 Giants in the field in the case of kind 2450 01:32:20,209 --> 01:32:18,120 of kitchen he is not only the great the 2451 01:32:22,850 --> 01:32:20,219 high priest of chronology in terms of 2452 01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:22,860 the fact that everybody bows down to him 2453 01:32:27,290 --> 01:32:25,170 as the guy who created the chronology we 2454 01:32:29,689 --> 01:32:27,300 work with today he's the sort of master 2455 01:32:32,810 --> 01:32:29,699 chronologist if you like but he's also 2456 01:32:37,550 --> 01:32:32,820 devout christian and now that means that 2457 01:32:39,770 --> 01:32:37,560 he is absolutely affixed on the idea 2458 01:32:41,660 --> 01:32:39,780 that ramses ii is the further the exodus 2459 01:32:43,250 --> 01:32:41,670 because in the first chapter of the book 2460 01:32:46,160 --> 01:32:43,260 of exodus it says that the israelites 2461 01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:46,170 built a city called Rameses and of 2462 01:32:50,870 --> 01:32:48,330 course that is the one thing that they 2463 01:32:52,580 --> 01:32:50,880 latch onto to say well if they built the 2464 01:32:54,830 --> 01:32:52,590 city call Rameses the Fuhrer must have 2465 01:32:57,770 --> 01:32:54,840 been call Rameses at the time and that 2466 01:33:00,860 --> 01:32:57,780 is where it all comes from that 1:1 2467 01:33:02,899 --> 01:33:00,870 mention in the Bible there so it's not 2468 01:33:06,050 --> 01:33:02,909 it's easy to understand why he's 2469 01:33:07,910 --> 01:33:06,060 defended his position so strongly it's 2470 01:33:11,380 --> 01:33:07,920 easy to understand why he's attacked me 2471 01:33:13,330 --> 01:33:11,390 so harshly because I'm effectively 2472 01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:13,340 upsetting the applecart for him 2473 01:33:17,780 --> 01:33:15,840 everything I've said goes against what 2474 01:33:20,570 --> 01:33:17,790 he's been teaching and writing about for 2475 01:33:22,189 --> 01:33:20,580 the last forty years now it's very 2476 01:33:25,070 --> 01:33:22,199 interesting because we we actually had a 2477 01:33:27,919 --> 01:33:25,080 debate in in the UK in the University of 2478 01:33:31,220 --> 01:33:27,929 Reading which was organized and it was 2479 01:33:34,209 --> 01:33:31,230 me and kick Kenneth kitchen debating the 2480 01:33:36,830 --> 01:33:34,219 Exodus and the dates for the Exodus and 2481 01:33:38,750 --> 01:33:36,840 before this had been lamb busting me had 2482 01:33:40,939 --> 01:33:38,760 been basically saying I was an idiot and 2483 01:33:42,410 --> 01:33:40,949 nothing that I said was real and and all 2484 01:33:45,110 --> 01:33:42,420 the rest of it and I sort of kept my 2485 01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:45,120 cool pretty much and and as I say I 2486 01:33:49,430 --> 01:33:47,370 respect the man and so we had this 2487 01:33:51,740 --> 01:33:49,440 debate in front of warned a lot 2488 01:33:53,810 --> 01:33:51,750 people sitting in the audience and it 2489 01:33:56,090 --> 01:33:53,820 was a full-blown full day had bet debate 2490 01:33:58,070 --> 01:33:56,100 and at the end of the debate at the 2491 01:34:01,130 --> 01:33:58,080 final session when we all sat down to 2492 01:34:01,640 --> 01:34:01,140 discuss the lectures etc in front of the 2493 01:34:04,490 --> 01:34:01,650 audience 2494 01:34:06,830 --> 01:34:04,500 he admitted and it's on film we've got 2495 01:34:08,780 --> 01:34:06,840 it on film he admitted that my date for 2496 01:34:10,760 --> 01:34:08,790 the Exodus and my arguments for the 2497 01:34:13,729 --> 01:34:10,770 Exodus and this is as far as he could go 2498 01:34:15,950 --> 01:34:13,739 were as powerful as his version of the 2499 01:34:17,540 --> 01:34:15,960 Exodus and his date of Exodus in other 2500 01:34:20,209 --> 01:34:17,550 words he wasn't prepared to concede me 2501 01:34:21,470 --> 01:34:20,219 to me the entire argument but he was 2502 01:34:24,590 --> 01:34:21,480 prepared at the end of that debate to 2503 01:34:27,530 --> 01:34:24,600 say yes David you have a strong argument 2504 01:34:30,770 --> 01:34:27,540 which is as strong as mine okay so 2505 01:34:34,340 --> 01:34:30,780 having lambasted me for 24 15 years 2506 01:34:36,050 --> 01:34:34,350 he actually said I was 98% rubbish yeah 2507 01:34:38,090 --> 01:34:36,060 which is what he actually wrote and then 2508 01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:38,100 with inflation within a couple years it 2509 01:34:43,220 --> 01:34:39,210 had gone on to up to a hundred percent 2510 01:34:45,260 --> 01:34:43,230 rubbish but after that he actually he 2511 01:34:47,270 --> 01:34:45,270 conceded the fact that the arguments I'd 2512 01:34:49,310 --> 01:34:47,280 put forward and I'm putting forward and 2513 01:34:52,459 --> 01:34:49,320 actually as powerful as he's owned you 2514 01:34:54,050 --> 01:34:52,469 know this is a theme that I'm again not 2515 01:34:56,270 --> 01:34:54,060 trying to paint everyone with with the 2516 01:34:58,310 --> 01:34:56,280 same brush as it were but I - two 2517 01:35:01,100 --> 01:34:58,320 episodes ago we had Robert dr. Robert 2518 01:35:03,800 --> 01:35:01,110 Schoch on on the show and he discussed 2519 01:35:06,979 --> 01:35:03,810 the hardships that he had experienced 2520 01:35:08,900 --> 01:35:06,989 during the time that his reading of the 2521 01:35:12,110 --> 01:35:08,910 Sphinx theory came out and that shows he 2522 01:35:13,880 --> 01:35:12,120 was shouted at and spit on by by you 2523 01:35:15,770 --> 01:35:13,890 know other researchers and basically you 2524 01:35:19,220 --> 01:35:15,780 know called garbage as it were and that 2525 01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:19,230 they were wrong why is there a at least 2526 01:35:22,729 --> 01:35:20,850 somewhat of a theme or reoccurring theme 2527 01:35:26,150 --> 01:35:22,739 that I myself and some of the other 2528 01:35:29,090 --> 01:35:26,160 listeners may have heard who believed in 2529 01:35:31,700 --> 01:35:29,100 looking at alternate theories why is it 2530 01:35:33,200 --> 01:35:31,710 that there is such a such attacks and 2531 01:35:36,590 --> 01:35:33,210 why do people take it so personally if 2532 01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:36,600 they do is this is this a like is this 2533 01:35:41,689 --> 01:35:39,449 something that's common or or not well 2534 01:35:42,920 --> 01:35:41,699 people don't like change especially 2535 01:35:45,140 --> 01:35:42,930 academics especially in the history 2536 01:35:47,260 --> 01:35:45,150 fields scientists are tend to be a bit 2537 01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:47,270 more liberal minded science is a 2538 01:35:51,830 --> 01:35:49,410 discipline of looking forward to the 2539 01:35:54,830 --> 01:35:51,840 future history by its very nature is 2540 01:35:57,470 --> 01:35:54,840 looking to the Past looking backwards so 2541 01:35:59,120 --> 01:35:57,480 historians people working in this - 2542 01:36:00,740 --> 01:35:59,130 history feels as it were the history 2543 01:36:02,870 --> 01:36:00,750 disciplines tend to be quite 2544 01:36:05,180 --> 01:36:02,880 conservative in their views 2545 01:36:07,160 --> 01:36:05,190 and those young bucks who come along at 2546 01:36:09,500 --> 01:36:07,170 university straight out to school some 2547 01:36:11,919 --> 01:36:09,510 of them they sit at the foot of their 2548 01:36:14,510 --> 01:36:11,929 professors you know gone as it were 2549 01:36:18,020 --> 01:36:14,520 listening to this pontification from a 2550 01:36:19,580 --> 01:36:18,030 man who is superior in age and superior 2551 01:36:22,189 --> 01:36:19,590 in intellect and superior in knowledge 2552 01:36:26,020 --> 01:36:22,199 and they take it as truth they take his 2553 01:36:28,540 --> 01:36:26,030 reality and so they go on to replicate 2554 01:36:30,979 --> 01:36:28,550 effective what they're taught when they 2555 01:36:33,020 --> 01:36:30,989 become their professors in turn and 2556 01:36:35,810 --> 01:36:33,030 usually the the guys who was still 2557 01:36:37,370 --> 01:36:35,820 hanging around at university holding on 2558 01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:37,380 to the coke tail of the professor are 2559 01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:38,730 the ones that have not gone out in the 2560 01:36:43,370 --> 01:36:40,320 big world and got jobs in banking and 2561 01:36:45,080 --> 01:36:43,380 getting paid like $300,000 a year you 2562 01:36:46,879 --> 01:36:45,090 know the bright sparks that want to be 2563 01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:46,889 dynamism other ones that have left the 2564 01:36:49,850 --> 01:36:48,330 university the only ones that are left 2565 01:36:51,860 --> 01:36:49,860 are the wanted to make a mile to go out 2566 01:36:54,020 --> 01:36:51,870 into the big wide world and they tend to 2567 01:36:56,120 --> 01:36:54,030 become the next professors so the 2568 01:36:58,100 --> 01:36:56,130 mechanism itself is a conservative one 2569 01:37:00,290 --> 01:36:58,110 history is a conservative discipline in 2570 01:37:04,399 --> 01:37:00,300 that respect but remember what Max 2571 01:37:08,229 --> 01:37:04,409 Planck said the famous physicist he said 2572 01:37:11,629 --> 01:37:08,239 that when you bring forward a new idea 2573 01:37:14,750 --> 01:37:11,639 it takes it nests it's necessary for 2574 01:37:17,090 --> 01:37:14,760 though that the existing academic 2575 01:37:19,100 --> 01:37:17,100 community to die off before a new idea 2576 01:37:21,200 --> 01:37:19,110 will be accepted by a new generation of 2577 01:37:22,729 --> 01:37:21,210 scholars who were not encumbered by the 2578 01:37:25,640 --> 01:37:22,739 emotional baggage of the previous 2579 01:37:27,919 --> 01:37:25,650 generation and I think that's what we're 2580 01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:27,929 involved were involved in here I mean I 2581 01:37:31,970 --> 01:37:30,330 come to University you're a straight out 2582 01:37:32,689 --> 01:37:31,980 of rock and roll industry as a mature 2583 01:37:34,850 --> 01:37:32,699 student 2584 01:37:36,530 --> 01:37:34,860 I'm not your 18 year old school kid 2585 01:37:38,750 --> 01:37:36,540 who's just come in there is and I've got 2586 01:37:41,660 --> 01:37:38,760 some ideas on my own and when I sit at 2587 01:37:44,540 --> 01:37:41,670 the foot of my professors yeah you know 2588 01:37:46,340 --> 01:37:44,550 academic gown I ask questions I debate 2589 01:37:48,560 --> 01:37:46,350 with them and they love it they actually 2590 01:37:50,570 --> 01:37:48,570 love the the cut normally they don't get 2591 01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:50,580 any questions I ask them by the students 2592 01:37:54,169 --> 01:37:52,770 but the problem is those aren't the 2593 01:37:55,879 --> 01:37:54,179 professor's that I have to concern 2594 01:37:58,430 --> 01:37:55,889 myself with the ones that know me know 2595 01:38:01,129 --> 01:37:58,440 what I'm like know how I think that's 2596 01:38:02,450 --> 01:38:01,139 why I was invited to give seminars at 2597 01:38:04,129 --> 01:38:02,460 the postgraduate level I was an 2598 01:38:06,080 --> 01:38:04,139 undergraduate student with all the 2599 01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:06,090 professor's they're the ones who don't 2600 01:38:09,410 --> 01:38:07,530 know me the problems the ones who've 2601 01:38:10,970 --> 01:38:09,420 never met me who think I'm some sort of 2602 01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:10,980 charlatan just because you know 2603 01:38:14,689 --> 01:38:12,690 whippersnappers come along and watch the 2604 01:38:16,669 --> 01:38:14,699 chops at the apple cart well I've got 2605 01:38:18,589 --> 01:38:16,679 the training I've done the gears 2606 01:38:20,899 --> 01:38:18,599 years of training at University and I've 2607 01:38:22,459 --> 01:38:20,909 got the discipline in me the academic 2608 01:38:24,350 --> 01:38:22,469 training to do it it's much more 2609 01:38:26,209 --> 01:38:24,360 difficult for them to dismiss me the way 2610 01:38:29,089 --> 01:38:26,219 that dismiss other people in this genre 2611 01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:29,099 of all this err idea of creative 2612 01:38:32,989 --> 01:38:31,050 thinking because a lot of them have not 2613 01:38:35,029 --> 01:38:32,999 got the background University background 2614 01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:35,039 that I've got so I'm much more dangerous 2615 01:38:39,500 --> 01:38:38,010 person for them than somebody that they 2616 01:38:40,910 --> 01:38:39,510 can dismiss as saying oh well he's not 2617 01:38:43,310 --> 01:38:40,920 an egyptologist he's not an academic 2618 01:38:44,750 --> 01:38:43,320 he's just coming up with these ideas you 2619 01:38:46,089 --> 01:38:44,760 know they could do that with certainly 2620 01:38:48,799 --> 01:38:46,099 figures but they can't do that with me 2621 01:38:50,569 --> 01:38:48,809 and that's the interesting and before I 2622 01:38:52,250 --> 01:38:50,579 be able to comment out Kevin Stevens 2623 01:38:54,109 --> 01:38:52,260 who's a regular listener and one of her 2624 01:38:57,020 --> 01:38:54,119 original listeners he said that he met 2625 01:38:58,250 --> 01:38:57,030 you at a megalithic Odyssey conference 2626 01:39:00,500 --> 01:38:58,260 and just he said that you're oh yeah he 2627 01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:00,510 said that you're a true gentleman and he 2628 01:39:03,529 --> 01:39:02,130 said yet fortunate he's left because he 2629 01:39:05,569 --> 01:39:03,539 lives in your time zone he's got family 2630 01:39:07,459 --> 01:39:05,579 things to take care of but he wanted to 2631 01:39:09,919 --> 01:39:07,469 say hi and said he very much appreciated 2632 01:39:11,509 --> 01:39:09,929 your talk at that conference that was 2633 01:39:12,979 --> 01:39:11,519 very nice of you to do that in funnily 2634 01:39:15,890 --> 01:39:12,989 enough that was the conference where I 2635 01:39:17,449 --> 01:39:15,900 did explained what really is going on 2636 01:39:18,739 --> 01:39:17,459 with the Sphinx so let's just put that 2637 01:39:21,259 --> 01:39:18,749 one down a little marker for later 2638 01:39:22,969 --> 01:39:21,269 because again you know that's something 2639 01:39:24,709 --> 01:39:22,979 that I I am actually in disagreement 2640 01:39:26,719 --> 01:39:24,719 with Robert Schoch about so you ought to 2641 01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:26,729 have the opposite view as well or an 2642 01:39:31,549 --> 01:39:29,610 undifferentiated anyway at some point 2643 01:39:33,319 --> 01:39:31,559 but yes I mean that that conference was 2644 01:39:35,719 --> 01:39:33,329 you know I'm not a megalithic scholar in 2645 01:39:37,129 --> 01:39:35,729 the sense I'm a I'm a history scholar so 2646 01:39:38,899 --> 01:39:37,139 when you're going back to the megalithic 2647 01:39:40,609 --> 01:39:38,909 period or the age of the Sphinx the 2648 01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:40,619 pyramids or whatever that's not my 2649 01:39:44,029 --> 01:39:42,510 discipline not my field as it were 2650 01:39:45,739 --> 01:39:44,039 remember the Egyptology is a very broad 2651 01:39:47,689 --> 01:39:45,749 field of meaning you have mummy 2652 01:39:49,399 --> 01:39:47,699 specialists you have chronologist you 2653 01:39:51,859 --> 01:39:49,409 have historians you have archaeologists 2654 01:39:53,270 --> 01:39:51,869 you have linguists linguistics you know 2655 01:39:56,089 --> 01:39:53,280 you have people who study texts of 2656 01:39:57,229 --> 01:39:56,099 different periods you have a pig Rivest 2657 01:39:59,569 --> 01:39:57,239 you have all sorts of different 2658 01:40:01,459 --> 01:39:59,579 disciplines within within Egyptology 2659 01:40:03,469 --> 01:40:01,469 it's like saying everybody's a surgeon 2660 01:40:06,109 --> 01:40:03,479 but I many different types of surgeon so 2661 01:40:07,819 --> 01:40:06,119 you know I my specialism is 32 million 2662 01:40:09,439 --> 01:40:07,829 per chronology or chronology but I 2663 01:40:11,359 --> 01:40:09,449 sometimes dip into this other material 2664 01:40:14,929 --> 01:40:11,369 cuz I have some background in training 2665 01:40:17,209 --> 01:40:14,939 in it and and my views on the Giza 2666 01:40:20,029 --> 01:40:17,219 necropolis and the Sphinx and the 2667 01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:20,039 pyramids asked quite different from 2668 01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:21,449 conventional thinking but they certainly 2669 01:40:26,989 --> 01:40:23,010 don't go as far as Robert Schoch does 2670 01:40:29,340 --> 01:40:26,999 and for the the new chronology I know 2671 01:40:31,260 --> 01:40:29,350 that you push back the 2672 01:40:32,640 --> 01:40:31,270 this is this this is kind of jumping 2673 01:40:34,980 --> 01:40:32,650 around via the time table and I've got 2674 01:40:36,450 --> 01:40:34,990 the conventional versus your chronology 2675 01:40:38,130 --> 01:40:36,460 actually opened on the I on my screen 2676 01:40:41,010 --> 01:40:38,140 here and I've shared a chat a little 2677 01:40:43,740 --> 01:40:41,020 further up you push the old die or the 2678 01:40:47,400 --> 01:40:43,750 pre-dynastic period you know at least 2679 01:40:49,830 --> 01:40:47,410 back to 30 to 50 BC back to ya and 2680 01:40:52,710 --> 01:40:49,840 Nakada one in Nakada two and out of 2681 01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:52,720 three yeah can you go into a little bit 2682 01:40:57,960 --> 01:40:55,090 on on the the pre-dynastic times as far 2683 01:41:00,210 --> 01:40:57,970 as your view yeah I can do that I mean 2684 01:41:02,460 --> 01:41:00,220 remember this is pretext so these in 2685 01:41:04,410 --> 01:41:02,470 prehistory I mean the definition of 2686 01:41:06,420 --> 01:41:04,420 history is when texts begin when you 2687 01:41:08,280 --> 01:41:06,430 start having narrative and documentation 2688 01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:08,290 is when history begins so and I think 2689 01:41:14,490 --> 01:41:11,890 before writing is prehistory so Nakara 2690 01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:14,500 one is prehistory certainly but Naqada 2691 01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:16,690 to is previously the carter three is 2692 01:41:21,870 --> 01:41:19,090 where we begin to see writing for the 2693 01:41:23,460 --> 01:41:21,880 first time in Egypt as principally 2694 01:41:25,530 --> 01:41:23,470 things like the records or quantities of 2695 01:41:27,690 --> 01:41:25,540 particular materials from a particular 2696 01:41:30,150 --> 01:41:27,700 district of Egypt to a tomb we might 2697 01:41:31,830 --> 01:41:30,160 find a docket on a jar that was you know 2698 01:41:34,110 --> 01:41:31,840 was was contributed to the barrel of a 2699 01:41:36,450 --> 01:41:34,120 king or whatever and you have what we 2700 01:41:38,580 --> 01:41:36,460 call seracs or Horus names of Kings that 2701 01:41:40,350 --> 01:41:38,590 appear on rocks and various pots and 2702 01:41:42,210 --> 01:41:40,360 things and they are the names of the 2703 01:41:44,700 --> 01:41:42,220 Kings who's buried in these tombs or 2704 01:41:47,160 --> 01:41:44,710 whatever so we do start to get a record 2705 01:41:50,280 --> 01:41:47,170 of certain individual rulers at this 2706 01:41:52,290 --> 01:41:50,290 period and so we we can construct a 2707 01:41:55,080 --> 01:41:52,300 history from around the time of what we 2708 01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:55,090 call dynasty 0 that which is basically 2709 01:41:58,740 --> 01:41:57,370 in the Carter 3 and then because we get 2710 01:42:01,890 --> 01:41:58,750 the first dynasty when dynastic 2711 01:42:04,830 --> 01:42:01,900 histories truly starts with many's or 2712 01:42:07,710 --> 01:42:04,840 whatever Horus are how we think he is so 2713 01:42:11,990 --> 01:42:07,720 there are five or six rulers before our 2714 01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:12,000 ha who we've got evidence for the most 2715 01:42:17,910 --> 01:42:14,410 earliest one we seem to have with the 2716 01:42:20,460 --> 01:42:17,920 Horus name is eerie he is the 2717 01:42:24,060 --> 01:42:20,470 successor of King scorpion of the famous 2718 01:42:26,460 --> 01:42:24,070 movie King scorpion was succeeded we 2719 01:42:28,980 --> 01:42:26,470 think by eerie now eerie is 2720 01:42:31,740 --> 01:42:28,990 the first one as far as I'm aware who 2721 01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:31,750 has a Horus name so he's the force first 2722 01:42:36,420 --> 01:42:33,970 Horus king of all the kings of Egypt 2723 01:42:38,940 --> 01:42:36,430 after that were called Horus kings there 2724 01:42:42,270 --> 01:42:38,950 were horses the the symbol of kingship 2725 01:42:43,140 --> 01:42:42,280 if you like the Falcon God and so it 2726 01:42:46,290 --> 01:42:43,150 seems to me 2727 01:42:48,540 --> 01:42:46,300 that he is really the first Horus king 2728 01:42:50,970 --> 01:42:48,550 that founds the the concept of the 2729 01:42:53,970 --> 01:42:50,980 Horace Kings as it were and in my 2730 01:42:56,100 --> 01:42:53,980 personal view he is the guy who is 2731 01:42:59,430 --> 01:42:56,110 associated with the construction of the 2732 01:43:01,860 --> 01:42:59,440 Sphinx because Cara Marquette the name 2733 01:43:02,820 --> 01:43:01,870 of the Sphinx the HAR part of that is 2734 01:43:05,399 --> 01:43:02,830 the word Horus 2735 01:43:08,220 --> 01:43:05,409 so Horus who is in the horizon is what 2736 01:43:10,680 --> 01:43:08,230 that means so it would be logical for 2737 01:43:12,990 --> 01:43:10,690 the first Horus King to be the creator 2738 01:43:15,990 --> 01:43:13,000 of the Horus Sphinx the the Sphinx of 2739 01:43:17,610 --> 01:43:16,000 Horus and that's what I think you get 2740 01:43:20,970 --> 01:43:17,620 from the evidence at the Giza necropolis 2741 01:43:23,070 --> 01:43:20,980 because not just the Sphinx itself but 2742 01:43:25,380 --> 01:43:23,080 they there is a series of stone must 2743 01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:25,390 immerse on the southern side of the 2744 01:43:29,729 --> 01:43:27,250 Sphinx causeway over course we're going 2745 01:43:32,040 --> 01:43:29,739 up to the quarry to pyramid which are 2746 01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:32,050 cut into the rock and they are as 2747 01:43:36,780 --> 01:43:34,449 heavily eroded as the Sphinx itself and 2748 01:43:40,860 --> 01:43:36,790 they had what we call niche facade or 2749 01:43:43,050 --> 01:43:40,870 palace facade decoration on them very 2750 01:43:45,450 --> 01:43:43,060 heavily eroded now but you can still see 2751 01:43:47,540 --> 01:43:45,460 remnants of it and that we know is a 2752 01:43:49,830 --> 01:43:47,550 feature that was invented or created 2753 01:43:52,340 --> 01:43:49,840 just before the beginning of the first 2754 01:43:54,810 --> 01:43:52,350 dynasty so it seems very likely 2755 01:43:58,169 --> 01:43:54,820 therefore that there are some major 2756 01:43:59,700 --> 01:43:58,179 tombs in the Giza necropolis dating from 2757 01:44:02,550 --> 01:43:59,710 the beginning of the 1st in history or 2758 01:44:04,620 --> 01:44:02,560 slightly earlier and now the erosion 2759 01:44:06,390 --> 01:44:04,630 pattern on those tombs is exactly the 2760 01:44:08,340 --> 01:44:06,400 same as the erosion of the Sphinx or the 2761 01:44:10,439 --> 01:44:08,350 Sphinx enclosure not so much the Sphinx 2762 01:44:12,090 --> 01:44:10,449 which suggests that those sets of 2763 01:44:15,330 --> 01:44:12,100 monuments the Sphinx and the tombs are 2764 01:44:18,090 --> 01:44:15,340 contemporary about the same date and and 2765 01:44:20,820 --> 01:44:18,100 the erosion that you see on the Sphinx 2766 01:44:22,709 --> 01:44:20,830 enclosure where I disagree with Jacques 2767 01:44:24,720 --> 01:44:22,719 fundamentally is that he wants to now 2768 01:44:28,169 --> 01:44:24,730 push that back to Agra Beckley Tepe age 2769 01:44:30,570 --> 01:44:28,179 sort of 10,000 BC and I see absolutely 2770 01:44:31,979 --> 01:44:30,580 no evidence for that at all not only do 2771 01:44:34,530 --> 01:44:31,989 I not see evidence for it but the 2772 01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:34,540 erosion certainly would could have taken 2773 01:44:40,620 --> 01:44:37,090 place between let's say for argument's 2774 01:44:42,990 --> 01:44:40,630 sake dynasty 0 up to the 5th dynasty and 2775 01:44:45,720 --> 01:44:43,000 at which point the quarrying that took 2776 01:44:48,390 --> 01:44:45,730 place behind the Sphinx to build the 2777 01:44:49,860 --> 01:44:48,400 Khufu pyramid would have deprived water 2778 01:44:51,899 --> 01:44:49,870 runoff from reaching the Sphinx 2779 01:44:53,790 --> 01:44:51,909 enclosure because they dug a huge hole 2780 01:44:56,890 --> 01:44:53,800 in the ground there to the north of the 2781 01:44:58,270 --> 01:44:56,900 Khafre causeway and that if any 2782 01:44:59,649 --> 01:44:58,280 flash floods were to come down on a 2783 01:45:01,720 --> 01:44:59,659 regular basis from the top of the 2784 01:45:03,310 --> 01:45:01,730 plateau and then cascade over the edge 2785 01:45:05,410 --> 01:45:03,320 of the Sphinx enclosure that would have 2786 01:45:08,979 --> 01:45:05,420 been stopped by the coring of the blocks 2787 01:45:11,140 --> 01:45:08,989 that built part of the core food pyramid 2788 01:45:15,010 --> 01:45:11,150 so we could say there's a terminus point 2789 01:45:17,500 --> 01:45:15,020 where the erosion stopped ceased at that 2790 01:45:19,990 --> 01:45:17,510 point the the pillowing effect we get on 2791 01:45:22,479 --> 01:45:20,000 the enclosure and that would be the 2792 01:45:24,850 --> 01:45:22,489 point where that erosion ceases and and 2793 01:45:26,290 --> 01:45:24,860 the pier will be about 450 years and I 2794 01:45:28,450 --> 01:45:26,300 think that is certainly sufficient time 2795 01:45:30,820 --> 01:45:28,460 for that erosion to take place because 2796 01:45:32,649 --> 01:45:30,830 you've got a huge plateau area there 2797 01:45:34,930 --> 01:45:32,659 sloping down to the Sphinx enclosure 2798 01:45:36,669 --> 01:45:34,940 which every time there's a rainstorm 2799 01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:36,679 that would have turned into a waterfall 2800 01:45:40,630 --> 01:45:38,690 and I've seen it when I was a kid I saw 2801 01:45:42,669 --> 01:45:40,640 that happen I actually saw it pouring 2802 01:45:45,459 --> 01:45:42,679 down the causeway of Khafre and into the 2803 01:45:47,590 --> 01:45:45,469 Sphinx enclosure and so I've seen it 2804 01:45:49,330 --> 01:45:47,600 happen and you get at least what today 2805 01:45:51,220 --> 01:45:49,340 you get at least one or two heavy 2806 01:45:53,350 --> 01:45:51,230 rainstorms like that a year in Egypt in 2807 01:45:55,510 --> 01:45:53,360 the neolithic wet face which is the time 2808 01:45:58,840 --> 01:45:55,520 of the praetor pre-dynastic era the time 2809 01:46:00,669 --> 01:45:58,850 before the fifth dynasty they were Egypt 2810 01:46:02,560 --> 01:46:00,679 was much much wetter there was very very 2811 01:46:04,780 --> 01:46:02,570 heavy rainstorms going on all the time 2812 01:46:07,090 --> 01:46:04,790 so you might have got five six seven 2813 01:46:08,410 --> 01:46:07,100 heavy rainstorms a year cascading over 2814 01:46:10,450 --> 01:46:08,420 the edge of the enclosure there and 2815 01:46:13,660 --> 01:46:10,460 causing that erosion pattern it does not 2816 01:46:16,180 --> 01:46:13,670 take 8,000 years nine thousand years to 2817 01:46:17,860 --> 01:46:16,190 do that it really does not least not 2818 01:46:19,149 --> 01:46:17,870 required it's one of those things that 2819 01:46:20,680 --> 01:46:19,159 okay we have you know it'd be a good 2820 01:46:22,689 --> 01:46:20,690 idea to be able to test this if we've 2821 01:46:26,380 --> 01:46:22,699 got two or three hundred years to you 2822 01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:26,390 know get get some get some sandstone out 2823 01:46:29,620 --> 01:46:28,250 of Egypt or anywhere and just cascade 2824 01:46:31,360 --> 01:46:29,630 water over for an extended period of 2825 01:46:33,669 --> 01:46:31,370 time well you don't you don't need to 2826 01:46:35,830 --> 01:46:33,679 because you've got tombs with nice 2827 01:46:38,470 --> 01:46:35,840 facade architecture which we know was 2828 01:46:39,640 --> 01:46:38,480 invented all the evidence points to that 2829 01:46:41,860 --> 01:46:39,650 being invented at the beginning of the 2830 01:46:43,419 --> 01:46:41,870 first dynasty and the erosion pads on 2831 01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:43,429 those those monuments are the same as 2832 01:46:47,709 --> 01:46:46,610 the Sphinx enclosure okay okay no that 2833 01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:47,719 that makes that makes a lot more sense 2834 01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:49,250 and thank you very much for clarifying 2835 01:46:55,270 --> 01:46:53,330 that with regards to let's say trying to 2836 01:46:57,520 --> 01:46:55,280 date it to go back to the tip a have you 2837 01:46:59,020 --> 01:46:57,530 researched go back to the tip at all and 2838 01:47:01,270 --> 01:46:59,030 I know that we've got some people who 2839 01:47:02,620 --> 01:47:01,280 are interested in it and in certain 2840 01:47:02,919 --> 01:47:02,630 shows for people who listen to fade to 2841 01:47:05,919 --> 01:47:02,929 black 2842 01:47:07,479 --> 01:47:05,929 and James Cruz I'm looking at you that's 2843 01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:07,489 an indication for most people to take a 2844 01:47:13,400 --> 01:47:10,410 shot whenever I mentioned gobekli tepe 2845 01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:13,410 right well I was actually one of the 2846 01:47:17,390 --> 01:47:15,330 first ones to visit the place really 2847 01:47:19,010 --> 01:47:17,400 yeah I went to up to Quebec I can't know 2848 01:47:21,290 --> 01:47:19,020 what year it was now I think it was 2000 2849 01:47:23,570 --> 01:47:21,300 and was it 2003 something like that 2850 01:47:25,460 --> 01:47:23,580 something on those lines and they 2851 01:47:28,190 --> 01:47:25,470 basically had only just uncovered a 2852 01:47:31,660 --> 01:47:28,200 couple of the temples at that point it 2853 01:47:34,280 --> 01:47:31,670 is a remarkable site there no denying it 2854 01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:34,290 there are issues though with the way 2855 01:47:39,260 --> 01:47:36,810 people treat that particular site the 2856 01:47:41,060 --> 01:47:39,270 war the one thing that worries me is 2857 01:47:42,950 --> 01:47:41,070 they concentrate so much on the temples 2858 01:47:45,890 --> 01:47:42,960 but they don't concentrate on the 2859 01:47:47,480 --> 01:47:45,900 plateau if you enter the site to your 2860 01:47:49,010 --> 01:47:47,490 right hand side as you go on the path 2861 01:47:50,720 --> 01:47:49,020 towards where the temple location is on 2862 01:47:52,550 --> 01:47:50,730 the top of the hill to the right hand 2863 01:47:54,140 --> 01:47:52,560 side there's a rock plateau a sloping 2864 01:47:56,780 --> 01:47:54,150 plateau that goes down that nobody talks 2865 01:48:00,560 --> 01:47:56,790 about and all over that area there there 2866 01:48:02,120 --> 01:48:00,570 are holes cut into the rock for standing 2867 01:48:04,220 --> 01:48:02,130 something or others whether they were 2868 01:48:07,040 --> 01:48:04,230 stones or wooden beams or whatever they 2869 01:48:10,430 --> 01:48:07,050 were and they were clearly alignments 2870 01:48:12,500 --> 01:48:10,440 for astronomical observation so that at 2871 01:48:14,720 --> 01:48:12,510 certain festivals throughout the year 2872 01:48:16,130 --> 01:48:14,730 people would gather there for 2873 01:48:18,050 --> 01:48:16,140 astronomical events and they would do 2874 01:48:21,620 --> 01:48:18,060 measuring whatever and it seems very 2875 01:48:24,860 --> 01:48:21,630 clear to me that Gobekli Tepe is its pre 2876 01:48:27,050 --> 01:48:24,870 agriculture okay so it's hunter-gatherer 2877 01:48:28,820 --> 01:48:27,060 society but hunter-gatherer society is 2878 01:48:30,740 --> 01:48:28,830 not just cavemen it's much more 2879 01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:30,750 sophisticated than that and you would 2880 01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:33,210 have had clans and tribes and they would 2881 01:48:38,660 --> 01:48:35,850 have gathered at a place like your 2882 01:48:41,390 --> 01:48:38,670 Beckley Tepe at certain celestial events 2883 01:48:41,990 --> 01:48:41,400 like solar eclipses equinoxes whatever 2884 01:48:45,620 --> 01:48:42,000 they might be 2885 01:48:47,150 --> 01:48:45,630 spring equinoxes solstices or whatever 2886 01:48:48,980 --> 01:48:47,160 they were they would observe those they 2887 01:48:51,380 --> 01:48:48,990 would would gather together of that 2888 01:48:53,510 --> 01:48:51,390 place for spiritual reasons because 2889 01:48:54,770 --> 01:48:53,520 those things were very important to the 2890 01:48:57,170 --> 01:48:54,780 people in those days they didn't have 2891 01:48:58,610 --> 01:48:57,180 color TVs their nights were spent gazing 2892 01:49:00,430 --> 01:48:58,620 at the stars for goodness sakes you know 2893 01:49:02,840 --> 01:49:00,440 that's what it was all about 2894 01:49:05,990 --> 01:49:02,850 cyclamen that's as good as let's say a 2895 01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:06,000 good it'll be really good at least from 2896 01:49:10,370 --> 01:49:07,290 what I've been told never done it myself 2897 01:49:13,100 --> 01:49:10,380 but so so this site it's not a 2898 01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:13,110 settlement okay there's no burials there 2899 01:49:17,840 --> 01:49:14,730 they haven't found human remains as far 2900 01:49:20,060 --> 01:49:17,850 as I know it's a gathering place it's a 2901 01:49:22,850 --> 01:49:20,070 place for people to gather for rituals 2902 01:49:24,020 --> 01:49:22,860 on a regular basis maybe once twice 2903 01:49:25,609 --> 01:49:24,030 three times a year and they 2904 01:49:28,089 --> 01:49:25,619 come from their zones of counting and 2905 01:49:30,529 --> 01:49:28,099 they would gather together for rituals 2906 01:49:32,209 --> 01:49:30,539 what the temple function is is another 2907 01:49:34,279 --> 01:49:32,219 matter they may be astronomical 2908 01:49:35,990 --> 01:49:34,289 but they also may be an Acropolis and 2909 01:49:38,660 --> 01:49:36,000 there may be a places where in that 2910 01:49:42,470 --> 01:49:38,670 particular region the process normally 2911 01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:42,480 for for the deceased was not to bury 2912 01:49:46,669 --> 01:49:44,250 them was watched he to lay them out to 2913 01:49:48,680 --> 01:49:46,679 be desiccated by vultures and crows and 2914 01:49:50,060 --> 01:49:48,690 things so that the the fleshy wood 2915 01:49:53,209 --> 01:49:50,070 picked off the bones and then their 2916 01:49:55,310 --> 01:49:53,219 bones would be either placed in a and 2917 01:49:56,689 --> 01:49:55,320 and a burial somewhere or taken to the 2918 01:49:58,970 --> 01:49:56,699 home and the skull was quite often 2919 01:50:01,129 --> 01:49:58,980 placed in the house so do you have 2920 01:50:02,419 --> 01:50:01,139 ancestors schools your ancestors were 2921 01:50:04,640 --> 01:50:02,429 there in your home with you and you 2922 01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:04,650 would talk to them and that that we have 2923 01:50:09,979 --> 01:50:07,650 a lots of evidence for that so it may 2924 01:50:11,750 --> 01:50:09,989 well be that those shelves that you see 2925 01:50:13,160 --> 01:50:11,760 in those circular temples will actually 2926 01:50:14,779 --> 01:50:13,170 for laying out bones or filleting our 2927 01:50:17,060 --> 01:50:14,789 bodies and then they would come and 2928 01:50:18,649 --> 01:50:17,070 collect the bones a later date which is 2929 01:50:21,169 --> 01:50:18,659 why the no burials then I take them back 2930 01:50:24,020 --> 01:50:21,179 to their ancestral areas where they 2931 01:50:25,729 --> 01:50:24,030 actually came from so those are the 2932 01:50:27,350 --> 01:50:25,739 those are the issues I would say that as 2933 01:50:30,740 --> 01:50:27,360 I would understand it what other point I 2934 01:50:33,560 --> 01:50:30,750 would mention to you is that because the 2935 01:50:36,200 --> 01:50:33,570 gobekli tepe monuments of stone because 2936 01:50:38,660 --> 01:50:36,210 there are no bones there the only way 2937 01:50:41,950 --> 01:50:38,670 they can get a date radiocarbon date 2938 01:50:44,779 --> 01:50:41,960 before the remains is to date the soil 2939 01:50:47,419 --> 01:50:44,789 okay because so little little living 2940 01:50:48,020 --> 01:50:47,429 organism stone is not they don't have 2941 01:50:50,720 --> 01:50:48,030 any bones 2942 01:50:52,520 --> 01:50:50,730 so the radiocarbon dates I am this as I 2943 01:50:55,700 --> 01:50:52,530 understand them are actually soil 2944 01:50:58,970 --> 01:50:55,710 samples now we know that the the site 2945 01:51:01,580 --> 01:50:58,980 was reburied okay it was completely 2946 01:51:03,950 --> 01:51:01,590 reburied in soil so the not dated the 2947 01:51:05,569 --> 01:51:03,960 monuments the dating the earth and you 2948 01:51:09,229 --> 01:51:05,579 don't know how old the earth is you 2949 01:51:13,069 --> 01:51:09,239 don't know where it's come from so get 2950 01:51:16,279 --> 01:51:13,079 this date of 10,500 BC Oh even slightly 2951 01:51:18,290 --> 01:51:16,289 later we have to be sure about the 2952 01:51:20,899 --> 01:51:18,300 dating and you can't base it purely on 2953 01:51:22,640 --> 01:51:20,909 soil samples dating because soil could 2954 01:51:26,240 --> 01:51:22,650 be much older than the monuments that it 2955 01:51:28,700 --> 01:51:26,250 covers now it from my understanding the 2956 01:51:31,010 --> 01:51:28,710 there may have been and again I'm I 2957 01:51:32,959 --> 01:51:31,020 can't confirm this because I don't have 2958 01:51:34,279 --> 01:51:32,969 the research in front of me but from 2959 01:51:35,600 --> 01:51:34,289 what I've been under at least from my 2960 01:51:37,430 --> 01:51:35,610 understandings that there there may have 2961 01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:37,440 been multiple samples that have been 2962 01:51:43,010 --> 01:51:41,250 taken and the consistency before that 2963 01:51:44,180 --> 01:51:43,020 areas is the same throughout so yes it 2964 01:51:45,500 --> 01:51:44,190 was it was reburied 2965 01:51:46,970 --> 01:51:45,510 and the only way they would have been 2966 01:51:49,400 --> 01:51:46,980 able to tell that was with multiple 2967 01:51:51,620 --> 01:51:49,410 samples unless they just you know 2968 01:51:55,070 --> 01:51:51,630 drilled one core sample down in one area 2969 01:51:57,500 --> 01:51:55,080 and took it all from that they simply 2970 01:51:59,420 --> 01:51:57,510 take samples as they excavate and you 2971 01:52:01,370 --> 01:51:59,430 you you scrape some soil off the top of 2972 01:52:02,750 --> 01:52:01,380 a one of the stones there and you've 2973 01:52:05,270 --> 01:52:02,760 gone have sent it way to the laboratory 2974 01:52:07,430 --> 01:52:05,280 to be to be dated but it's dating 2975 01:52:08,350 --> 01:52:07,440 soilless all is a natural organism it's 2976 01:52:10,790 --> 01:52:08,360 not man-made 2977 01:52:12,260 --> 01:52:10,800 okay so there's not that doesn't date 2978 01:52:13,880 --> 01:52:12,270 the stone even the carving of the stone 2979 01:52:14,660 --> 01:52:13,890 it doesn't date the people who were 2980 01:52:17,270 --> 01:52:14,670 there okay 2981 01:52:19,460 --> 01:52:17,280 it dates that it dates the environment 2982 01:52:23,090 --> 01:52:19,470 the locus of the stones but it doesn't 2983 01:52:24,800 --> 01:52:23,100 date the stones themselves now with 2984 01:52:27,170 --> 01:52:24,810 regards to the carving iron you you've 2985 01:52:28,820 --> 01:52:27,180 seen them firsthand and I only seen them 2986 01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:28,830 in pictures and I can only imagine how 2987 01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:31,970 magnificent the the monuments would be 2988 01:52:36,170 --> 01:52:35,250 the idea currently right now or at least 2989 01:52:38,630 --> 01:52:36,180 some of the theories that have been 2990 01:52:40,820 --> 01:52:38,640 presented is that because it is relief 2991 01:52:44,240 --> 01:52:40,830 carving that is somewhat of a an 2992 01:52:47,570 --> 01:52:44,250 advanced carving technique that sorry so 2993 01:52:51,380 --> 01:52:47,580 how long normally has does it take for 2994 01:52:53,630 --> 01:52:51,390 for this type of technique to arise 2995 01:52:56,260 --> 01:52:53,640 within within a civilization at least in 2996 01:52:58,580 --> 01:52:56,270 your opinion well is it is extraordinary 2997 01:53:00,800 --> 01:52:58,590 thing about Quebec utopia more than 2998 01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:00,810 anything else because the carvings are 2999 01:53:07,910 --> 01:53:04,010 very fine fine work exceptional work and 3000 01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:07,920 this is pre metalworking okay 3001 01:53:12,140 --> 01:53:10,530 metalworking doesn't think if you accept 3002 01:53:14,180 --> 01:53:12,150 the dates that with the radiocarbon 3003 01:53:16,880 --> 01:53:14,190 dates which I've just already said and 3004 01:53:20,210 --> 01:53:16,890 maybe dubious but if you do and you 3005 01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:20,220 establish these carvings to be 10000 BC 3006 01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:24,570 or there abouts then your pre metal okay 3007 01:53:27,440 --> 01:53:26,010 now that somebody may might be saying to 3008 01:53:29,060 --> 01:53:27,450 you or one of your listeners might be 3009 01:53:30,830 --> 01:53:29,070 saying ah but they must have had metal 3010 01:53:32,900 --> 01:53:30,840 and they forgotten how to use it but we 3011 01:53:35,300 --> 01:53:32,910 have no evidence of metal nothing's 3012 01:53:38,840 --> 01:53:35,310 being dug up anywhere we think they 3013 01:53:41,540 --> 01:53:38,850 simply use stone they'd use pounders to 3014 01:53:44,060 --> 01:53:41,550 smooth those big dolmens or whatever you 3015 01:53:45,980 --> 01:53:44,070 want to call them those big pillars but 3016 01:53:49,880 --> 01:53:45,990 that doesn't explain how they carve the 3017 01:53:51,260 --> 01:53:49,890 fine art on them and that is the mystery 3018 01:53:52,990 --> 01:53:51,270 that is the most 3019 01:53:56,510 --> 01:53:53,000 what a mystery of all of Gobekli Tepe 3020 01:53:59,120 --> 01:53:56,520 you know you would expect those to be 3021 01:54:01,100 --> 01:53:59,130 made from copper copper chisels or 3022 01:54:03,440 --> 01:54:01,110 copper workings would be the way you 3023 01:54:05,390 --> 01:54:03,450 would expect that sort of relief work to 3024 01:54:07,910 --> 01:54:05,400 be done you can hardly expect it to be 3025 01:54:10,580 --> 01:54:07,920 done I don't think with stone unless 3026 01:54:14,480 --> 01:54:10,590 you've got flint or something like that 3027 01:54:15,950 --> 01:54:14,490 where you scrape the the actual shapes 3028 01:54:17,900 --> 01:54:15,960 and things and define the lines with 3029 01:54:19,310 --> 01:54:17,910 that and I suppose you've got volcanic 3030 01:54:21,620 --> 01:54:19,320 stone there as well in that region so 3031 01:54:23,420 --> 01:54:21,630 there's all the possibility but that is 3032 01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:23,430 the extraordinary thing about Gobekli to 3033 01:54:26,990 --> 01:54:24,810 be more than anything else I think is 3034 01:54:29,570 --> 01:54:27,000 the art work the art and how they 3035 01:54:31,370 --> 01:54:29,580 managed to achieve it at that time but 3036 01:54:33,110 --> 01:54:31,380 then again you know people raise issues 3037 01:54:34,580 --> 01:54:33,120 about Egyptian art Lina how do they 3038 01:54:36,650 --> 01:54:34,590 can't for Granite's how did they do this 3039 01:54:38,630 --> 01:54:36,660 how did you do that there's always been 3040 01:54:40,550 --> 01:54:38,640 this great debate about the technologies 3041 01:54:43,010 --> 01:54:40,560 of the ancient world and how they 3042 01:54:44,720 --> 01:54:43,020 achieved them and you know I always say 3043 01:54:47,060 --> 01:54:44,730 you know they didn't have a lot of other 3044 01:54:49,640 --> 01:54:47,070 distractions no they were basically 3045 01:54:51,740 --> 01:54:49,650 lifters of stone movers of stone cutters 3046 01:54:53,660 --> 01:54:51,750 of stone movers of dirt and Carver's of 3047 01:54:55,820 --> 01:54:53,670 stone that was their big thing their 3048 01:54:57,950 --> 01:54:55,830 talent technology probably was vastly 3049 01:54:59,180 --> 01:54:57,960 superior to what we imagined simply 3050 01:55:00,500 --> 01:54:59,190 because they didn't have other things 3051 01:55:01,850 --> 01:55:00,510 they didn't have the Internet they 3052 01:55:03,950 --> 01:55:01,860 didn't have computers didn't have cars 3053 01:55:05,780 --> 01:55:03,960 planes they would they were good at what 3054 01:55:06,410 --> 01:55:05,790 they had which was very little and they 3055 01:55:09,410 --> 01:55:06,420 did it very well 3056 01:55:11,180 --> 01:55:09,420 as my friends and I say we just soar at 3057 01:55:12,740 --> 01:55:11,190 least for Alex and I especially we just 3058 01:55:15,620 --> 01:55:12,750 sit around and think up how to do 3059 01:55:18,110 --> 01:55:15,630 that that's unusual our usual line of 3060 01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:18,120 thinking yeah I know that there are 3061 01:55:21,650 --> 01:55:19,770 certain proponents especially with the 3062 01:55:23,180 --> 01:55:21,660 you know old Kingdom in Egypt and how 3063 01:55:24,590 --> 01:55:23,190 there are certain artifacts that were 3064 01:55:26,750 --> 01:55:24,600 found that were made of some of the 3065 01:55:30,380 --> 01:55:26,760 hardest stone and the carvings of them 3066 01:55:33,020 --> 01:55:30,390 were so so precise and so a balance that 3067 01:55:34,190 --> 01:55:33,030 you can have a bowl that was rounded at 3068 01:55:35,780 --> 01:55:34,200 the bottom that was made of let's say 3069 01:55:37,370 --> 01:55:35,790 die right for instance and it may not be 3070 01:55:37,760 --> 01:55:37,380 made of die right but just for examples 3071 01:55:39,590 --> 01:55:37,770 sake 3072 01:55:41,780 --> 01:55:39,600 yeah and it's a rounded bottom and all 3073 01:55:43,250 --> 01:55:41,790 it does is it's it's perfectly balanced 3074 01:55:45,530 --> 01:55:43,260 on that rounded bottom there's no flat 3075 01:55:47,960 --> 01:55:45,540 area for it to sit on and whether it's 3076 01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:47,970 fun or not and these are things that we 3077 01:55:51,140 --> 01:55:49,410 may find difficult to be able to do 3078 01:55:53,090 --> 01:55:51,150 today or maybe we just don't have the 3079 01:55:55,400 --> 01:55:53,100 need to be able to do it but who knows 3080 01:55:56,480 --> 01:55:55,410 how all the time all the time as well I 3081 01:55:58,580 --> 01:55:56,490 mean the time is the other thing just 3082 01:56:00,290 --> 01:55:58,590 imagine some of these beautiful statues 3083 01:56:03,560 --> 01:56:00,300 nature to the kings which are 3084 01:56:05,199 --> 01:56:03,570 exquisitely done now they are not simply 3085 01:56:07,509 --> 01:56:05,209 done with a chisel and a hammer 3086 01:56:08,890 --> 01:56:07,519 okay they could they rough shape them 3087 01:56:10,779 --> 01:56:08,900 with a chisel and a hammer and the 3088 01:56:12,759 --> 01:56:10,789 pounders and things but the end of the 3089 01:56:14,919 --> 01:56:12,769 day they're probably using that the 3090 01:56:16,620 --> 01:56:14,929 artists that were let's call him not 3091 01:56:18,640 --> 01:56:16,630 column artists the artisans the 3092 01:56:20,410 --> 01:56:18,650 craftsmen who were doing this and there 3093 01:56:23,620 --> 01:56:20,420 were many probably working on the same 3094 01:56:27,100 --> 01:56:23,630 object they would literally polish and 3095 01:56:30,370 --> 01:56:27,110 smooth the texture of those stones those 3096 01:56:33,520 --> 01:56:30,380 statues with their thumbs they would use 3097 01:56:36,219 --> 01:56:33,530 their skin to smooth and wear down and 3098 01:56:38,169 --> 01:56:36,229 get the surface the way they did it they 3099 01:56:40,899 --> 01:56:38,179 had all the time in the world one man 3100 01:56:43,929 --> 01:56:40,909 might spend an entire lifetime creating 3101 01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:43,939 one statue of a king you know that was 3102 01:56:48,580 --> 01:56:45,650 his job in life that's what he had to do 3103 01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:48,590 and and so we can't think of it in the 3104 01:56:53,620 --> 01:56:51,170 way we do today I mean you know time was 3105 01:56:55,899 --> 01:56:53,630 not of the essence for them okay 3106 01:56:57,790 --> 01:56:55,909 weight and size and all those things 3107 01:56:59,949 --> 01:56:57,800 didn't matter to them they just achieved 3108 01:57:02,500 --> 01:56:59,959 by whatever way they could in the time 3109 01:57:03,699 --> 01:57:02,510 they had available to do it and so you 3110 01:57:05,469 --> 01:57:03,709 know they're not in the mad rush that 3111 01:57:07,750 --> 01:57:05,479 we're in today we would lose patients 3112 01:57:08,350 --> 01:57:07,760 immediately but that wasn't a concept to 3113 01:57:11,169 --> 01:57:08,360 them at all 3114 01:57:13,870 --> 01:57:11,179 so yes it's it's to do with the skills 3115 01:57:16,029 --> 01:57:13,880 that they managed to obtain because 3116 01:57:19,810 --> 01:57:16,039 their minds and their cultures were not 3117 01:57:23,259 --> 01:57:19,820 cluttered with other rubbish and how 3118 01:57:24,969 --> 01:57:23,269 would you look at things like the dating 3119 01:57:26,339 --> 01:57:24,979 of how long it took the pyramid to be 3120 01:57:28,719 --> 01:57:26,349 made I know that there are certain 3121 01:57:31,259 --> 01:57:28,729 timelines that are set around like 20 3122 01:57:36,160 --> 01:57:31,269 years which seems to be the the accepted 3123 01:57:37,299 --> 01:57:36,170 timeline yeah even for myself you know 3124 01:57:39,520 --> 01:57:37,309 there there are certain theories out 3125 01:57:41,109 --> 01:57:39,530 there that they there were pulleys and 3126 01:57:43,359 --> 01:57:41,119 levers and that the it was built from 3127 01:57:46,689 --> 01:57:43,369 the inside out or there was water that 3128 01:57:48,219 --> 01:57:46,699 was involved and you know do do you have 3129 01:57:50,020 --> 01:57:48,229 any idea of how that could have been 3130 01:57:51,609 --> 01:57:50,030 done or have you ever hypothesized how 3131 01:57:52,839 --> 01:57:51,619 that could have been done well let's 3132 01:57:54,250 --> 01:57:52,849 first of all deal with the time issue 3133 01:57:56,379 --> 01:57:54,260 because that's what you raised first of 3134 01:57:58,689 --> 01:57:56,389 all now you're right that the general 3135 01:58:01,120 --> 01:57:58,699 thinking is that Khufu reigned for 23 3136 01:58:03,429 --> 01:58:01,130 years to build a Great Pyramid now it's 3137 01:58:05,949 --> 01:58:03,439 very true to say that you don't you 3138 01:58:07,810 --> 01:58:05,959 don't have a pyramid that's but started 3139 01:58:09,640 --> 01:58:07,820 before a Kings born and you don't have a 3140 01:58:11,169 --> 01:58:09,650 pyramid completed after he's dead 3141 01:58:13,660 --> 01:58:11,179 because the next kings but it busy 3142 01:58:15,609 --> 01:58:13,670 building his own pyramid so Khafre or 3143 01:58:16,299 --> 01:58:15,619 Jerry Frey whoever it's going to be the 3144 01:58:18,009 --> 01:58:16,309 successor 3145 01:58:18,919 --> 01:58:18,019 it's bloody construction his arm he's 3146 01:58:21,439 --> 01:58:18,929 not got time to go 3147 01:58:23,450 --> 01:58:21,449 please dance pyramid so let's forget 3148 01:58:25,399 --> 01:58:23,460 that idea the pyramid had to have been 3149 01:58:27,680 --> 01:58:25,409 built during the lifetime of King Khufu 3150 01:58:28,880 --> 01:58:27,690 if gopher was the Builder of the pyramid 3151 01:58:31,040 --> 01:58:28,890 and that's a different issue entirely 3152 01:58:32,780 --> 01:58:31,050 but let's just argue for the sakes of 3153 01:58:34,910 --> 01:58:32,790 arguments that it is the Pyramid of 3154 01:58:36,979 --> 01:58:34,920 Khufu and he built it let's just go with 3155 01:58:37,610 --> 01:58:36,989 that for the minute now we've got 23 3156 01:58:39,830 --> 01:58:37,620 years to do it 3157 01:58:41,540 --> 01:58:39,840 and you've got 2.3 million blocks 3158 01:58:44,990 --> 01:58:41,550 weighing between two and a half and five 3159 01:58:48,560 --> 01:58:45,000 tonnes each on the thing and if you work 3160 01:58:50,990 --> 01:58:48,570 out the maths you end up having to lay 3161 01:58:53,570 --> 01:58:51,000 and even if you're working 24 hours a 3162 01:58:55,669 --> 01:58:53,580 day with arc lights on the pyramid which 3163 01:58:57,169 --> 01:58:55,679 is ridiculous but even if you were to do 3164 01:59:01,270 --> 01:58:57,179 that and you would rule you would end up 3165 01:59:04,310 --> 01:59:01,280 having to lay a block every two minutes 3166 01:59:05,689 --> 01:59:04,320 you know and that's just nonsense that's 3167 01:59:06,979 --> 01:59:05,699 just impossible and they'd first of all 3168 01:59:09,410 --> 01:59:06,989 the only work in daylight so you'd have 3169 01:59:11,689 --> 01:59:09,420 to you mean the dynamics of that 3170 01:59:14,180 --> 01:59:11,699 construction in that time frame are just 3171 01:59:15,350 --> 01:59:14,190 nonsense it's not possible okay so then 3172 01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:15,360 you have to come up with all sorts of 3173 01:59:18,260 --> 01:59:16,890 ways of thinking of how it could be done 3174 01:59:21,830 --> 01:59:18,270 except there's one very simple 3175 01:59:24,860 --> 01:59:21,840 explanation and that is that we have 3176 01:59:26,660 --> 01:59:24,870 documents like the Palermo stone which 3177 01:59:29,090 --> 01:59:26,670 actually recall in the reign of Khufu 3178 01:59:31,490 --> 01:59:29,100 and other kings what we call cattle 3179 01:59:33,860 --> 01:59:31,500 counts now cattle counts were done every 3180 01:59:35,479 --> 01:59:33,870 two years in this period and what it has 3181 01:59:37,280 --> 01:59:35,489 that the state goes around and account 3182 01:59:39,470 --> 01:59:37,290 all the cattle and they base the taxes 3183 01:59:40,970 --> 01:59:39,480 on on the number of cattle in the land 3184 01:59:45,229 --> 01:59:40,980 at particular time this happened every 3185 01:59:48,919 --> 01:59:45,239 two years now the 23 years that we have 3186 01:59:52,340 --> 01:59:48,929 for Khufu in the cheering Canon may 3187 01:59:55,399 --> 01:59:52,350 actually be 23 cattle counts in which 3188 02:00:00,350 --> 01:59:55,409 case it means that we have 46 years at 3189 02:00:01,760 --> 02:00:00,360 least for this king not 23 ok big ok and 3190 02:00:03,830 --> 02:00:01,770 we think it's probably even higher 3191 02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:03,840 because this the actual number is 3192 02:00:08,300 --> 02:00:06,090 dubious as to whether or not that 23 is 3193 02:00:10,850 --> 02:00:08,310 really there on the document itself so 3194 02:00:13,490 --> 02:00:10,860 it might well be that he had a 46 to 50 3195 02:00:15,770 --> 02:00:13,500 year reign in which case it eases the 3196 02:00:17,660 --> 02:00:15,780 problem of the building to his limited 3197 02:00:20,780 --> 02:00:17,670 degree still doesn't solve the issue of 3198 02:00:22,399 --> 02:00:20,790 how on earth they did it but you could 3199 02:00:23,930 --> 02:00:22,409 argue then that there's a little bit 3200 02:00:26,149 --> 02:00:23,940 more time there they double the time 3201 02:00:27,919 --> 02:00:26,159 triple the time perhaps to to build the 3202 02:00:29,899 --> 02:00:27,929 pyramid as we originally thought so 3203 02:00:31,790 --> 02:00:29,909 that's one explanation that would ease 3204 02:00:32,790 --> 02:00:31,800 the problem a bit but it doesn't solve 3205 02:00:36,899 --> 02:00:32,800 it entirely 3206 02:00:38,459 --> 02:00:36,909 admit and you you are at least her you 3207 02:00:40,799 --> 02:00:38,469 you know rubber ball if I'm not mistaken 3208 02:00:43,069 --> 02:00:40,809 is that correct yeah unfortunately I do 3209 02:00:45,600 --> 02:00:43,079 yeah he's a good friend of mine sadly 3210 02:00:49,350 --> 02:00:45,610 well I I won't tell if you won't 3211 02:00:50,939 --> 02:00:49,360 but okay there he's great it's great 3212 02:00:52,620 --> 02:00:50,949 actually breeze the pen in the arse if I 3213 02:00:54,000 --> 02:00:52,630 have to say cuz he won't stop talking I 3214 02:00:56,819 --> 02:00:54,010 don't never get a word in edgeways 3215 02:00:58,470 --> 02:00:56,829 so whenever ever went out of a Skype 3216 02:01:00,209 --> 02:00:58,480 call with Robert E and I'm trying to 3217 02:01:02,430 --> 02:01:00,219 wrap my next book he's on for about two 3218 02:01:04,229 --> 02:01:02,440 and a half hours giving it you know this 3219 02:01:05,459 --> 02:01:04,239 all the time giving a you know talking 3220 02:01:12,660 --> 02:01:05,469 the whole time and I could never get rid 3221 02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:12,670 of him on the show I'd recognize I live 3222 02:01:17,819 --> 02:01:14,250 for four or five hours if I love you 3223 02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:17,829 well you know we've gone as long as 3224 02:01:22,410 --> 02:01:20,770 seven hours for an episode so well if 3225 02:01:24,359 --> 02:01:22,420 that was that was two episodes ago and 3226 02:01:25,799 --> 02:01:24,369 we started at 8:30 p.m. and we went 3227 02:01:27,419 --> 02:01:25,809 until four o'clock in the morning give 3228 02:01:32,100 --> 02:01:27,429 or take for all the listeners out there 3229 02:01:34,470 --> 02:01:32,110 it's episode not gonna happen I know but 3230 02:01:36,930 --> 02:01:34,480 going back to ball I know that there is 3231 02:01:41,549 --> 02:01:36,940 a question that is in the chat from 3232 02:01:43,250 --> 02:01:41,559 Silva and she's asking or he's again my 3233 02:01:46,979 --> 02:01:43,260 eyes are quite bad so I do apologize but 3234 02:01:49,169 --> 02:01:46,989 they're asking about the alignment of 3235 02:01:51,930 --> 02:01:49,179 the Sphinx to Leo and and the 3236 02:01:54,030 --> 02:01:51,940 correlation to Orion and you knowing 3237 02:01:55,260 --> 02:01:54,040 ball is what what is your opinion on 3238 02:01:57,299 --> 02:01:55,270 that and how much have you discussed 3239 02:01:59,910 --> 02:01:57,309 that between the two of you right 3240 02:02:01,950 --> 02:01:59,920 III have huge respect for Robert that's 3241 02:02:03,689 --> 02:02:01,960 the first thing to say and I move I'm a 3242 02:02:05,129 --> 02:02:03,699 fairly fair conventional Egyptologists 3243 02:02:06,299 --> 02:02:05,139 I'm not conventionally to bloody dating 3244 02:02:10,830 --> 02:02:06,309 but I mean I'm trained to be 3245 02:02:13,319 --> 02:02:10,840 conventional Roberts like a Ryan mission 3246 02:02:15,450 --> 02:02:13,329 sorry I Ryan alignment thesis or theory 3247 02:02:17,850 --> 02:02:15,460 though the shafts aligning with Orion's 3248 02:02:19,109 --> 02:02:17,860 belt etc is actually a brilliant piece 3249 02:02:21,089 --> 02:02:19,119 of research and I think he's absolutely 3250 02:02:24,870 --> 02:02:21,099 right it was no doubt about that 3251 02:02:26,970 --> 02:02:24,880 so his whole idea of the alignment of 3252 02:02:30,689 --> 02:02:26,980 the pyramids and the Sphinx that we has 3253 02:02:33,569 --> 02:02:30,699 I accept it 100% but you must listen 3254 02:02:36,689 --> 02:02:33,579 very carefully to what Robert says he 3255 02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:36,699 never says he never says that the 3256 02:02:43,379 --> 02:02:40,570 pyramids and the Sphinx date to 10,500 3257 02:02:44,510 --> 02:02:43,389 BC he never says that what he says is 3258 02:02:57,680 --> 02:02:44,520 the 3259 02:02:59,660 --> 02:02:57,690 recreated for an era when mythologically 3260 02:03:01,690 --> 02:02:59,670 speaking the Egyptians thought creation 3261 02:03:04,520 --> 02:03:01,700 took place September the first time 3262 02:03:07,520 --> 02:03:04,530 they're recreating the beginning of time 3263 02:03:10,790 --> 02:03:07,530 okay it does not mean the monuments were 3264 02:03:12,740 --> 02:03:10,800 done made at that time at all except for 3265 02:03:14,210 --> 02:03:12,750 one important point and this I think is 3266 02:03:17,900 --> 02:03:14,220 something that isn't really very well 3267 02:03:20,990 --> 02:03:17,910 known and that is that if you analyze 3268 02:03:22,700 --> 02:03:21,000 the the hill or the plateau upon which 3269 02:03:23,470 --> 02:03:22,710 the three great pyramids are built to 3270 02:03:26,720 --> 02:03:23,480 link ISA 3271 02:03:29,450 --> 02:03:26,730 they have subterranean chambers or three 3272 02:03:31,970 --> 02:03:29,460 of them yes now those those subterranean 3273 02:03:34,250 --> 02:03:31,980 chambers have passageways sloping 3274 02:03:36,530 --> 02:03:34,260 passageways that you enter the 3275 02:03:38,870 --> 02:03:36,540 subterranean chambers that actually do 3276 02:03:43,490 --> 02:03:38,880 not come to the outside of the pyramids 3277 02:03:46,970 --> 02:03:43,500 they are blocked off okay at the point 3278 02:03:48,680 --> 02:03:46,980 where the core Hill becomes blocks of 3279 02:03:50,900 --> 02:03:48,690 stone in other words they are little 3280 02:03:52,940 --> 02:03:50,910 mounds of hills made of rock and the 3281 02:03:54,800 --> 02:03:52,950 pyramids are built on top of them and at 3282 02:03:58,340 --> 02:03:54,810 the very point where those passageways 3283 02:04:00,050 --> 02:03:58,350 came out of the rock cutting the blocks 3284 02:04:01,340 --> 02:04:00,060 then seal them up and then you get the 3285 02:04:05,120 --> 02:04:01,350 rest of the pyramid built on either side 3286 02:04:07,640 --> 02:04:05,130 that means that the underground chambers 3287 02:04:11,840 --> 02:04:07,650 onto the three pyramids predate the 3288 02:04:14,660 --> 02:04:11,850 pyramids okay so if the pyramids are 3289 02:04:15,290 --> 02:04:14,670 fourth dynasty built by Khufu Khafre and 3290 02:04:18,770 --> 02:04:15,300 Menkaure 3291 02:04:21,770 --> 02:04:18,780 they are built on top of very ancient 3292 02:04:24,620 --> 02:04:21,780 secret chambers that are aligned with 3293 02:04:26,630 --> 02:04:24,630 Orion because the chambers are what's 3294 02:04:28,700 --> 02:04:26,640 aligned with Orion not just the apexis 3295 02:04:30,500 --> 02:04:28,710 of the pyramids the apex is the pyramid 3296 02:04:34,300 --> 02:04:30,510 to mark the position of the underground 3297 02:04:37,550 --> 02:04:34,310 chambers so the pyramids are actually 3298 02:04:40,460 --> 02:04:37,560 reinforced izing three secret chambers 3299 02:04:44,810 --> 02:04:40,470 or hills that were put the positioned to 3300 02:04:47,210 --> 02:04:44,820 align with the Orion belt and that is 3301 02:04:49,840 --> 02:04:47,220 the key and those are in my view are the 3302 02:04:52,640 --> 02:04:49,850 secret chambers of Thoth thrice-great 3303 02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:52,650 the thought is thrice-great because 3304 02:04:57,440 --> 02:04:55,050 there were three secret chambers under 3305 02:04:58,360 --> 02:04:57,450 Rostow the place where you enter the 3306 02:05:01,210 --> 02:04:58,370 underworld the 3307 02:05:04,420 --> 02:05:01,220 face of the hidden secrets and that's 3308 02:05:06,580 --> 02:05:04,430 what the whole regime is akiza and then 3309 02:05:09,700 --> 02:05:06,590 in the fourth dynasty they reincarnate 3310 02:05:11,050 --> 02:05:09,710 it with the monuments not the Sphinx the 3311 02:05:13,870 --> 02:05:11,060 Sphinx being older but the three 3312 02:05:16,450 --> 02:05:13,880 pyramids and if we're looking at the 3313 02:05:18,150 --> 02:05:16,460 idea of procession and I know that we've 3314 02:05:20,320 --> 02:05:18,160 had individuals on the show who have 3315 02:05:21,820 --> 02:05:20,330 disputed whether procession is actually 3316 02:05:24,910 --> 02:05:21,830 from wobble or whether it's from just 3317 02:05:26,710 --> 02:05:24,920 the movement of you know movement of the 3318 02:05:29,290 --> 02:05:26,720 solar system through space and that 3319 02:05:30,940 --> 02:05:29,300 creates it how how do you think they 3320 02:05:32,410 --> 02:05:30,950 were able to track and how long did it 3321 02:05:34,870 --> 02:05:32,420 how long did it take to be able to 3322 02:05:37,420 --> 02:05:34,880 develop that idea of procession and and 3323 02:05:40,180 --> 02:05:37,430 encode that within those hills at Giza 3324 02:05:42,220 --> 02:05:40,190 that then became the pyramids I think 3325 02:05:45,910 --> 02:05:42,230 it's basically a match of observation if 3326 02:05:49,210 --> 02:05:45,920 if if geezers an observation platform if 3327 02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:49,220 the Sphinx is created not just as the 3328 02:05:54,790 --> 02:05:51,650 guardian of the necropolis the Horus on 3329 02:05:57,430 --> 02:05:54,800 the horizon but it's also aligned as 3330 02:06:00,220 --> 02:05:57,440 Robert argues to the Leo concept and 3331 02:06:03,670 --> 02:06:00,230 that brings you back to 10,500 BC they 3332 02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:03,680 are marking out a plot for calendar 3333 02:06:08,200 --> 02:06:06,050 observation and they can observe 3334 02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:08,210 shifting in the time so for instance 3335 02:06:11,860 --> 02:06:10,610 they the Sphinx is aligned to the 3336 02:06:14,560 --> 02:06:11,870 equinox okay 3337 02:06:16,240 --> 02:06:14,570 so you can actually stand at the Sphinx 3338 02:06:19,900 --> 02:06:16,250 or behind the Sphinx and you can mark 3339 02:06:22,300 --> 02:06:19,910 out sunrise on the horizon forward 3340 02:06:24,160 --> 02:06:22,310 towards the east for the solstices the 3341 02:06:26,110 --> 02:06:24,170 furthest points at which they reach and 3342 02:06:28,240 --> 02:06:26,120 the Sun starts to return again before it 3343 02:06:30,310 --> 02:06:28,250 gets to the next equinox point etc and 3344 02:06:32,740 --> 02:06:30,320 you can mark out what happened with the 3345 02:06:36,490 --> 02:06:32,750 agricultural season the inundation of 3346 02:06:38,290 --> 02:06:36,500 the land by the by the the Nile you can 3347 02:06:39,820 --> 02:06:38,300 date the beginning of the new year to 3348 02:06:41,920 --> 02:06:39,830 the beginning of the flood based on your 3349 02:06:43,870 --> 02:06:41,930 observations of where the Sun rises and 3350 02:06:46,510 --> 02:06:43,880 in relationship to the position of the 3351 02:06:48,040 --> 02:06:46,520 Sphinx which marks you east so you can 3352 02:06:50,200 --> 02:06:48,050 plot that line of that movement 3353 02:06:51,990 --> 02:06:50,210 backwards or forwards of the Sun from 3354 02:06:54,760 --> 02:06:52,000 Giza very very easily and perfectly 3355 02:06:57,460 --> 02:06:54,770 what's interesting is that the season 3356 02:07:00,970 --> 02:06:57,470 names for the three seasons in Egypt 3357 02:07:04,840 --> 02:07:00,980 have shifted so arquette which is 3358 02:07:07,360 --> 02:07:04,850 supposedly the the inundation season 3359 02:07:09,580 --> 02:07:07,370 actually doesn't mean inundation scheme' 3360 02:07:12,370 --> 02:07:09,590 means inundation which is the season 3361 02:07:15,520 --> 02:07:12,380 before so there's a venom there's a bee 3362 02:07:18,220 --> 02:07:15,530 shift of alignment between the names of 3363 02:07:20,770 --> 02:07:18,230 the seasons which apparently do not 3364 02:07:23,560 --> 02:07:20,780 reflect the natural world in which the 3365 02:07:26,379 --> 02:07:23,570 cycles occur so there is a shift going 3366 02:07:27,939 --> 02:07:26,389 on which may we fare well beyond the 3367 02:07:30,390 --> 02:07:27,949 observation that the Egyptians actually 3368 02:07:34,120 --> 02:07:30,400 made so they began to understand 3369 02:07:36,820 --> 02:07:34,130 precession because of the shifting now 3370 02:07:38,649 --> 02:07:36,830 what about the idea and even 3371 02:07:40,750 --> 02:07:38,659 geographically and I know this can 3372 02:07:42,430 --> 02:07:40,760 sometimes be based on which projection 3373 02:07:44,740 --> 02:07:42,440 of the world map is going to be used 3374 02:07:47,410 --> 02:07:44,750 what about the idea that the pyramids 3375 02:07:49,660 --> 02:07:47,420 the the Pyramids of Giza are located in 3376 02:07:52,570 --> 02:07:49,670 at least a quote unquote at the center 3377 02:07:54,939 --> 02:07:52,580 of all land masses on the map it is is 3378 02:07:58,060 --> 02:07:54,949 there any correlation to this or is this 3379 02:08:02,080 --> 02:08:00,129 I'm not in a position to be able to say 3380 02:08:05,859 --> 02:08:02,090 about that you've got this a very 3381 02:08:07,330 --> 02:08:05,869 strange thing about the the whatsit now 3382 02:08:09,819 --> 02:08:07,340 I can try to remember what it all is is 3383 02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:09,829 to do with Roberts brother jean-paul and 3384 02:08:13,870 --> 02:08:12,050 the measurements of the meter and the 3385 02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:13,880 qubits the Royal qubit and the 3386 02:08:18,459 --> 02:08:16,010 dimensions of the pyramid and the fact 3387 02:08:21,609 --> 02:08:18,469 it sits on a particular number in terms 3388 02:08:24,280 --> 02:08:21,619 of the longitude and latitude which is a 3389 02:08:26,260 --> 02:08:24,290 position where it's something to do with 3390 02:08:28,390 --> 02:08:26,270 the distance to the pole and exactly 3391 02:08:30,939 --> 02:08:28,400 what sure it is but some people argue 3392 02:08:32,680 --> 02:08:30,949 that the Great Pyramid is actually in 3393 02:08:34,720 --> 02:08:32,690 its position for good reasons he 3394 02:08:36,450 --> 02:08:34,730 actually gives you the dimensions of the 3395 02:08:38,919 --> 02:08:36,460 earth the circumference of the earth 3396 02:08:40,600 --> 02:08:38,929 because of its position and it 3397 02:08:41,919 --> 02:08:40,610 apparently it's something also to do 3398 02:08:43,629 --> 02:08:41,929 with the invention of the meter which I 3399 02:08:45,339 --> 02:08:43,639 don't really understand because I mean 3400 02:08:47,800 --> 02:08:45,349 meter for me as a modern concept but 3401 02:08:49,569 --> 02:08:47,810 apparently it's it's used within the 3402 02:08:52,720 --> 02:08:49,579 measurements of the of the Great Pyramid 3403 02:08:55,479 --> 02:08:52,730 as well as they roll qubit also it's the 3404 02:08:57,220 --> 02:08:55,489 documentary also did the documentary via 3405 02:08:59,500 --> 02:08:57,230 email if you'd like I know I know that 3406 02:09:01,930 --> 02:08:59,510 it's something that people within our 3407 02:09:04,720 --> 02:09:01,940 community generally have known or have 3408 02:09:06,490 --> 02:09:04,730 heard about and I know that the question 3409 02:09:08,140 --> 02:09:06,500 may have just been related to it just 3410 02:09:10,750 --> 02:09:08,150 being sent a situated within that area 3411 02:09:12,310 --> 02:09:10,760 I've done quite a bit of research and 3412 02:09:13,930 --> 02:09:12,320 with researchers like Randall Carlson 3413 02:09:16,450 --> 02:09:13,940 whom we've had on the show several times 3414 02:09:18,069 --> 02:09:16,460 I have used the the dimensions of the 3415 02:09:21,160 --> 02:09:18,079 pyramid essentially and I know Graham 3416 02:09:23,109 --> 02:09:21,170 has has talked about it as well with the 3417 02:09:25,300 --> 02:09:23,119 dimensions of the earth or at least one 3418 02:09:27,100 --> 02:09:25,310 half of it being encoded within the 3419 02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:27,110 dimensions of the Great Pyramid based on 3420 02:09:32,890 --> 02:09:30,050 Phi and PI and how that it could have 3421 02:09:34,859 --> 02:09:32,900 proved that the ancient Egyptians knew 3422 02:09:36,879 --> 02:09:34,869 at least the dimensions of the earth and 3423 02:09:38,410 --> 02:09:36,889 something that's what Roberts and his 3424 02:09:40,180 --> 02:09:38,420 brother argue as well and think that 3425 02:09:42,790 --> 02:09:40,190 it's possible within the context I don't 3426 02:09:45,399 --> 02:09:42,800 find that particularly surprising I 3427 02:09:47,830 --> 02:09:45,409 don't think I mean you know okay they 3428 02:09:49,689 --> 02:09:47,840 were able to measure the circumference 3429 02:09:51,430 --> 02:09:49,699 of the earth by something or other 3430 02:09:54,250 --> 02:09:51,440 whatever mechanism it was they used and 3431 02:09:56,020 --> 02:09:54,260 I can't see that being a big issue it 3432 02:09:58,140 --> 02:09:56,030 doesn't necessarily mean H and aliens 3433 02:10:01,870 --> 02:09:58,150 can we give them that knowledge you know 3434 02:10:04,120 --> 02:10:01,880 you have Eratosthenes doing exactly the 3435 02:10:08,770 --> 02:10:04,130 same thing in the early Classical period 3436 02:10:11,980 --> 02:10:08,780 as well where he he observed the sunrise 3437 02:10:13,630 --> 02:10:11,990 at midday dropping down a well and not 3438 02:10:16,570 --> 02:10:13,640 creating a shadow and actually had a 3439 02:10:19,150 --> 02:10:16,580 stick at the other end of of Egypt a 3440 02:10:20,350 --> 02:10:19,160 pole and measured the the lack of shadow 3441 02:10:22,150 --> 02:10:20,360 then he was able to judge the 3442 02:10:24,520 --> 02:10:22,160 circumference between Aswan and 3443 02:10:26,530 --> 02:10:24,530 Alexandria on that basis and therefore 3444 02:10:29,590 --> 02:10:26,540 calculated within reasonable proximity 3445 02:10:31,090 --> 02:10:29,600 the dimensions of the earth so then it's 3446 02:10:32,980 --> 02:10:31,100 a possibility considering that it's been 3447 02:10:35,520 --> 02:10:32,990 done with in ancient times before maybe 3448 02:10:38,620 --> 02:10:35,530 later on that it could have been done 3449 02:10:41,260 --> 02:10:38,630 yeah why not why not I don't see why not 3450 02:10:43,840 --> 02:10:41,270 now this is the the the part of the show 3451 02:10:45,940 --> 02:10:43,850 where some guests will revel at it some 3452 02:10:49,900 --> 02:10:45,950 guests may cringe and I'm going to bring 3453 02:10:51,490 --> 02:10:49,910 up Atlantis and with oh yeah if whatever 3454 02:10:53,830 --> 02:10:51,500 you'd like to be able to call it some 3455 02:10:56,550 --> 02:10:53,840 you know Atlantis being the epic WA 3456 02:10:59,410 --> 02:10:56,560 'test term that people will ascribe to 3457 02:11:01,420 --> 02:10:59,420 the potential for some type of more 3458 02:11:03,280 --> 02:11:01,430 advanced civilization maybe not as 3459 02:11:05,440 --> 02:11:03,290 advanced as we are today and I'm 3460 02:11:08,140 --> 02:11:05,450 certainly not saying they had you know 3461 02:11:09,340 --> 02:11:08,150 laser fire and crystals or Jetsons cars 3462 02:11:12,610 --> 02:11:09,350 which I think would be awesome if they 3463 02:11:15,490 --> 02:11:12,620 did but hey who knows alright and this 3464 02:11:18,970 --> 02:11:15,500 is with the with in respect to Egyptian 3465 02:11:21,010 --> 02:11:18,980 history and ok you know the their 3466 02:11:23,380 --> 02:11:21,020 mythology of where is up tempi came from 3467 02:11:25,480 --> 02:11:23,390 and the fact that it's their mythology 3468 02:11:27,640 --> 02:11:25,490 said that you know the the gods had come 3469 02:11:30,490 --> 02:11:27,650 out of come out of a land that had been 3470 02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:30,500 destroyed by by water and fire and had 3471 02:11:34,210 --> 02:11:32,690 come from from the western lands how 3472 02:11:36,640 --> 02:11:34,220 much have you done research into that 3473 02:11:40,450 --> 02:11:36,650 yourself well do you have you ever had 3474 02:11:42,190 --> 02:11:40,460 Andy Collins on your show not yet he 3475 02:11:43,570 --> 02:11:42,200 wrote a book called gateway to Atlantis 3476 02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:43,580 and he asked me to write the foreword to 3477 02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:45,770 that so I did a bit of research for that 3478 02:11:51,610 --> 02:11:48,650 book and it was quite interesting 3479 02:11:54,670 --> 02:11:51,620 I'm of a sort of conservative view on 3480 02:11:57,310 --> 02:11:54,680 this but it's it's it's not entirely for 3481 02:12:00,460 --> 02:11:57,320 me it's not entirely fictitious I would 3482 02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:00,470 say first of all the the 10,000 date the 3483 02:12:06,580 --> 02:12:02,810 9,500 BC date or whatever it is is a bit 3484 02:12:09,160 --> 02:12:06,590 dubious mainly because I see a huge gap 3485 02:12:13,450 --> 02:12:09,170 in terms of civilization and how you 3486 02:12:15,490 --> 02:12:13,460 explain how the carryover from a devant 3487 02:12:17,650 --> 02:12:15,500 civilization comes and there's like 3488 02:12:19,450 --> 02:12:17,660 4,000 5,000 year old gap before it 3489 02:12:21,550 --> 02:12:19,460 starts to pick up again I have trouble 3490 02:12:23,920 --> 02:12:21,560 with that you'd expect some form of 3491 02:12:25,630 --> 02:12:23,930 continuity of civilization you know even 3492 02:12:27,760 --> 02:12:25,640 if it's destroyed how 3493 02:12:29,470 --> 02:12:27,770 the knowledge pass on to a hundred 3494 02:12:31,450 --> 02:12:29,480 generations later whatever it is so it's 3495 02:12:34,660 --> 02:12:31,460 very difficult to imagine how that would 3496 02:12:38,350 --> 02:12:34,670 would work so I have trouble with a date 3497 02:12:41,020 --> 02:12:38,360 okay when you take the date out and you 3498 02:12:43,030 --> 02:12:41,030 look at Solon's visit to Egypt remember 3499 02:12:46,510 --> 02:12:43,040 Solon was a great Archon of Athens and 3500 02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:46,520 he established the laws in Athens and he 3501 02:12:50,350 --> 02:12:48,410 knew he was gonna get into serious 3502 02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:50,360 once he published the laws and all the 3503 02:12:52,960 --> 02:12:51,530 people would be angry with him because 3504 02:12:55,510 --> 02:12:52,970 somebody would always argue about why 3505 02:12:58,420 --> 02:12:55,520 this law why that law so he he went into 3506 02:13:00,880 --> 02:12:58,430 voluntary exile and so he spent years 3507 02:13:03,310 --> 02:13:00,890 traveling around the the ancient world 3508 02:13:05,350 --> 02:13:03,320 and just enjoying himself like a tourist 3509 02:13:07,360 --> 02:13:05,360 and he went to Egypt recourse and he 3510 02:13:10,690 --> 02:13:07,370 went to Alexandria and various other 3511 02:13:14,110 --> 02:13:10,700 places and Alexandria because I didn't 3512 02:13:15,790 --> 02:13:14,120 exist he went to Egypt and he got this 3513 02:13:18,340 --> 02:13:15,800 information about Atlantis from the 3514 02:13:21,280 --> 02:13:18,350 priests if you remember in seis it was 3515 02:13:23,160 --> 02:13:21,290 and then that comes into Plato Plato 3516 02:13:26,710 --> 02:13:23,170 takes the story from so lon 3517 02:13:29,920 --> 02:13:26,720 now there is very obviously in that 3518 02:13:33,910 --> 02:13:29,930 story there is Athens mentioned as the 3519 02:13:38,080 --> 02:13:33,920 principal enemy of Atlantis now Athens 3520 02:13:40,090 --> 02:13:38,090 did not exist in 9,000 BC and it was 3521 02:13:41,440 --> 02:13:40,100 nowhere near the other side of the 3522 02:13:43,780 --> 02:13:41,450 Atlantic Ocean or in the middle of the 3523 02:13:46,030 --> 02:13:43,790 Atlantic Ocean there is no reason why 3524 02:13:47,260 --> 02:13:46,040 there was nothing increase at that time 3525 02:13:49,990 --> 02:13:47,270 nothing at all 3526 02:13:52,900 --> 02:13:50,000 so you have to look for an enemy of 3527 02:13:55,240 --> 02:13:52,910 Athens in historical times and of course 3528 02:13:58,030 --> 02:13:55,250 there was one that was Minoan Crete and 3529 02:13:59,710 --> 02:13:58,040 there was an island that blew its top 3530 02:14:03,360 --> 02:13:59,720 and sank into the sea which was 3531 02:14:05,590 --> 02:14:03,370 santorini thira so the and that the 3532 02:14:08,050 --> 02:14:05,600 civilizations of Crete the Minoan 3533 02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:08,060 civilization and Athenians were at war 3534 02:14:12,010 --> 02:14:09,530 they were in conflict with each other 3535 02:14:14,290 --> 02:14:12,020 and so there are a lot of parallels 3536 02:14:17,080 --> 02:14:14,300 between the stories of the destruction 3537 02:14:19,390 --> 02:14:17,090 of Santorini thira and the Atlantis 3538 02:14:21,490 --> 02:14:19,400 destruction and Athens comes into the 3539 02:14:23,050 --> 02:14:21,500 picture so there is a lot of historians 3540 02:14:25,570 --> 02:14:23,060 would say that this is borrowed from 3541 02:14:27,850 --> 02:14:25,580 that particular story remember that 3542 02:14:29,890 --> 02:14:27,860 there the whole story that it's been 3543 02:14:31,540 --> 02:14:29,900 told is one of moral teaching it's not 3544 02:14:33,670 --> 02:14:31,550 so much historical it's supposed to be 3545 02:14:36,040 --> 02:14:33,680 teaching about morals about what happens 3546 02:14:37,930 --> 02:14:36,050 to civilizations that collapse you know 3547 02:14:39,280 --> 02:14:37,940 the you know the type of piece of Elijah 3548 02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:39,290 she became 3549 02:14:42,190 --> 02:14:40,730 that's what the moral teaching is and 3550 02:14:44,290 --> 02:14:42,200 it's teaching it to Athena theni and 3551 02:14:46,120 --> 02:14:44,300 democracy the people say don't let it go 3552 02:14:49,150 --> 02:14:46,130 this way the way it went with Atlantis 3553 02:14:50,740 --> 02:14:49,160 it's a moral code but there are other 3554 02:14:53,200 --> 02:14:50,750 elements to this story are the Knights 3555 02:14:55,780 --> 02:14:53,210 The Pillars of Hercules for instance now 3556 02:14:57,400 --> 02:14:55,790 the pillow at vigilantes lay Beyond The 3557 02:15:00,010 --> 02:14:57,410 Pillars of Hercules that's an entirely 3558 02:15:01,900 --> 02:15:00,020 different story now because it can't be 3559 02:15:04,090 --> 02:15:01,910 the Santorini story the theorist story 3560 02:15:05,830 --> 02:15:04,100 so there may be two elements to this 3561 02:15:07,690 --> 02:15:05,840 story that have been brought together to 3562 02:15:09,700 --> 02:15:07,700 create the Atlantis myth 3563 02:15:12,040 --> 02:15:09,710 so the pillars were heard at least where 3564 02:15:15,130 --> 02:15:12,050 are those well people argue that it's 3565 02:15:16,960 --> 02:15:15,140 the Gibraltar straits in fact that isn't 3566 02:15:19,300 --> 02:15:16,970 reality it's quite clear from the 3567 02:15:21,400 --> 02:15:19,310 classical writings that it's not there 3568 02:15:25,030 --> 02:15:21,410 if the Pillars of Hercules or Heracles 3569 02:15:27,820 --> 02:15:25,040 were two bronze pillars that were built 3570 02:15:31,030 --> 02:15:27,830 on sakti Petri Island just near Cadiz 3571 02:15:33,460 --> 02:15:31,040 today which was an ancient city a 3572 02:15:36,640 --> 02:15:33,470 Phoenician city and whenever you sailed 3573 02:15:38,560 --> 02:15:36,650 past the temple of Achille of Hercules 3574 02:15:40,150 --> 02:15:38,570 there and you saw the two bronze pillars 3575 02:15:42,490 --> 02:15:40,160 you were going beyond The Pillars of 3576 02:15:44,170 --> 02:15:42,500 Hercules that's what the thing was so if 3577 02:15:46,030 --> 02:15:44,180 you ventured either northwards up to 3578 02:15:48,130 --> 02:15:46,040 Britain or you went across the Atlantic 3579 02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:48,140 you would pass The Pillars of Hercules 3580 02:15:53,740 --> 02:15:51,050 so we're if we're looking for that then 3581 02:15:56,340 --> 02:15:53,750 we're now looking beyond the Atlantic 3582 02:15:59,230 --> 02:15:56,350 Ocean we're looking to the Sargasso Sea 3583 02:16:01,180 --> 02:15:59,240 over there the the sea of weeds as it 3584 02:16:04,150 --> 02:16:01,190 were and you're looking at the Caribbean 3585 02:16:05,560 --> 02:16:04,160 so there is a possibility that there are 3586 02:16:08,200 --> 02:16:05,570 two stories here that have been 3587 02:16:11,530 --> 02:16:08,210 amalgamated and that perhaps there was 3588 02:16:13,090 --> 02:16:11,540 some megalithic culture which is 3589 02:16:14,980 --> 02:16:13,100 represented by the fact that many of the 3590 02:16:17,590 --> 02:16:14,990 megalithic sites face the Atlantic or 3591 02:16:19,210 --> 02:16:17,600 are on the Atlantic seaboard and that 3592 02:16:21,880 --> 02:16:19,220 there was something in the megalithic 3593 02:16:24,280 --> 02:16:21,890 period that was going on outside on the 3594 02:16:25,630 --> 02:16:24,290 other side Atlantic around Cuba area or 3595 02:16:27,820 --> 02:16:25,640 something like that in fact Andrew 3596 02:16:29,890 --> 02:16:27,830 Collins argued that Cuba is actually 3597 02:16:32,020 --> 02:16:29,900 sunken island that what we see today is 3598 02:16:34,570 --> 02:16:32,030 actually the mountains and that the rest 3599 02:16:36,490 --> 02:16:34,580 of the of the air of the original Island 3600 02:16:39,100 --> 02:16:36,500 south of Cuba was originally the plane 3601 02:16:41,560 --> 02:16:39,110 of Atlantis that's his argument and it 3602 02:16:43,060 --> 02:16:41,570 has some merit I have to say I'm not 3603 02:16:45,280 --> 02:16:43,070 talk about the Bimini stuff now that's 3604 02:16:47,710 --> 02:16:45,290 don't think that's relevant to this so 3605 02:16:50,410 --> 02:16:47,720 there may be some memory of something 3606 02:16:53,110 --> 02:16:50,420 like that and we do have evidence of 3607 02:16:55,270 --> 02:16:53,120 Atlantic the Atlantic Ocean be 3608 02:16:57,250 --> 02:16:55,280 crossed in historical times in ancient 3609 02:16:59,020 --> 02:16:57,260 times we have him we have a Carthaginian 3610 02:17:00,700 --> 02:16:59,030 shipwreck for instance off the coast of 3611 02:17:02,890 --> 02:17:00,710 Brazil where Carthaginian faria were 3612 02:17:04,600 --> 02:17:02,900 found inside it which means that at 3613 02:17:07,060 --> 02:17:04,610 least traveling travelers will cross an 3614 02:17:08,830 --> 02:17:07,070 Atlantic in the time of Carthage when 3615 02:17:10,300 --> 02:17:08,840 Carthage was at his peak and we have 3616 02:17:12,820 --> 02:17:10,310 Roman terracotta 3617 02:17:15,190 --> 02:17:12,830 in Mexico so it's quite clear that 3618 02:17:17,800 --> 02:17:15,200 people were traveling the Atlantic in 3619 02:17:19,930 --> 02:17:17,810 ancient times don't whether you can go 3620 02:17:22,090 --> 02:17:19,940 back to megalithic period is another 3621 02:17:23,800 --> 02:17:22,100 issue but I'm open-minded to it now 3622 02:17:26,379 --> 02:17:23,810 Randall Carlson again you may have heard 3623 02:17:27,490 --> 02:17:26,389 the the name it at one at one point or 3624 02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:27,500 another he's worked with Graham Hancock 3625 02:17:31,990 --> 02:17:30,170 on on visions of the gods and I'm 3626 02:17:33,970 --> 02:17:32,000 getting bombarded by questions regarding 3627 02:17:35,590 --> 02:17:33,980 this I'm gonna try and combine this into 3628 02:17:38,730 --> 02:17:35,600 one for for everyone who's listening at 3629 02:17:40,750 --> 02:17:38,740 home one of the main theories that 3630 02:17:42,430 --> 02:17:40,760 magicians of the gods brings brings 3631 02:17:45,760 --> 02:17:42,440 forward and this is based on the 3632 02:17:48,550 --> 02:17:45,770 research of Randall Carlson and that is 3633 02:17:54,060 --> 02:17:48,560 of a comet impact in North America 3634 02:17:56,379 --> 02:17:54,070 around the age of 10,500 BC with the 3635 02:17:57,790 --> 02:17:56,389 middle of the or the Atlantic plate 3636 02:18:00,780 --> 02:17:57,800 ending in the middle of the Atlantic and 3637 02:18:03,820 --> 02:18:00,790 all of this ice pressing down on the 3638 02:18:06,070 --> 02:18:03,830 North American plate there are something 3639 02:18:08,680 --> 02:18:06,080 called isostasy which essentially the 3640 02:18:11,560 --> 02:18:08,690 edges of the North American plate pushed 3641 02:18:14,290 --> 02:18:11,570 up above the water and combined with the 3642 02:18:17,140 --> 02:18:14,300 much lower water levels because every 3643 02:18:19,390 --> 02:18:17,150 all the water had been trapped within 3644 02:18:22,209 --> 02:18:19,400 that that glacier or the two glaciers on 3645 02:18:24,250 --> 02:18:22,219 the North American plate and that at 3646 02:18:27,640 --> 02:18:24,260 least they're saying is a possibility of 3647 02:18:29,980 --> 02:18:27,650 proving the you know at least it's again 3648 02:18:32,680 --> 02:18:29,990 at being a theory that there may have 3649 02:18:34,590 --> 02:18:32,690 been a landmass at one time in the 3650 02:18:38,440 --> 02:18:34,600 Atlantic if that had happened and 3651 02:18:39,400 --> 02:18:38,450 apparently the conditions for during the 3652 02:18:40,959 --> 02:18:39,410 Ice Age would have made it quite 3653 02:18:43,330 --> 02:18:40,969 habitable in the middle of the Atlantic 3654 02:18:45,910 --> 02:18:43,340 and and that is not the main theory that 3655 02:18:49,030 --> 02:18:45,920 is being brought forward and I'm not 3656 02:18:51,010 --> 02:18:49,040 sure if you have listened to or either 3657 02:18:52,870 --> 02:18:51,020 listen to the audible book magicians of 3658 02:18:55,030 --> 02:18:52,880 the gods or read Graham's work yourself 3659 02:18:56,890 --> 02:18:55,040 but I haven't read that particular book 3660 02:18:58,959 --> 02:18:56,900 I have read some of his earlier works 3661 02:19:00,580 --> 02:18:58,969 but he said that's it your geologists 3662 02:19:02,650 --> 02:19:00,590 questions you ask a geologist all this 3663 02:19:04,900 --> 02:19:02,660 stuff it's something that I mean I'm not 3664 02:19:07,280 --> 02:19:04,910 antsy catastrophism by any stretch of 3665 02:19:08,600 --> 02:19:07,290 the imagination but I you know I 3666 02:19:10,400 --> 02:19:08,610 like to know I'd like to know stuff like 3667 02:19:11,839 --> 02:19:10,410 where does this strike where was the 3668 02:19:13,370 --> 02:19:11,849 strike in the North American continent 3669 02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:13,380 where did it happen well they're a 3670 02:19:16,820 --> 02:19:14,969 couple where's the evidence for it well 3671 02:19:19,129 --> 02:19:16,830 there are a couple theories there are 3672 02:19:21,440 --> 02:19:19,139 some strikes are some impact zones 3673 02:19:23,919 --> 02:19:21,450 around Lake Ontario and actually near 3674 02:19:26,060 --> 02:19:23,929 where my my in-laws run an antique shop 3675 02:19:28,280 --> 02:19:26,070 that could have been dated back to that 3676 02:19:30,620 --> 02:19:28,290 area there was also the theory that that 3677 02:19:31,640 --> 02:19:30,630 the ice sheet took the brunt of it and 3678 02:19:34,280 --> 02:19:31,650 that's why there are not very many 3679 02:19:36,830 --> 02:19:34,290 craters there are only splash points the 3680 02:19:39,379 --> 02:19:36,840 Carolina bays being some of the the 3681 02:19:42,379 --> 02:19:39,389 other kind of shrapnel hit points from 3682 02:19:44,629 --> 02:19:42,389 from that comet impact and you know the 3683 02:19:46,339 --> 02:19:44,639 the idea is that if there it was some 3684 02:19:48,820 --> 02:19:46,349 civilization that had existed in the 3685 02:19:51,320 --> 02:19:48,830 middle of the Atlantic and it did have 3686 02:19:53,960 --> 02:19:51,330 you know worldwide reach at that point 3687 02:19:56,240 --> 02:19:53,970 then that's a possibility of the 3688 02:19:58,040 --> 02:19:56,250 original source for it now again I don't 3689 02:20:00,380 --> 02:19:58,050 know for sure and I'm you know you and I 3690 02:20:03,410 --> 02:20:00,390 haven't lived that long I know you know 3691 02:20:05,330 --> 02:20:03,420 it's I believe quite a while actually to 3692 02:20:08,120 --> 02:20:05,340 be honest I'm a crusty old historian and 3693 02:20:10,370 --> 02:20:08,130 a crusty old historian would require 3694 02:20:14,920 --> 02:20:10,380 evidence so what I would ask immediately 3695 02:20:17,300 --> 02:20:14,930 would be let's find or present to me 3696 02:20:19,761 --> 02:20:17,310 archeological evidence you can't argue 3697 02:20:22,340 --> 02:20:19,771 that the entire civilization is buried 3698 02:20:24,430 --> 02:20:22,350 under the fault lines of the of the 3699 02:20:26,780 --> 02:20:24,440 Atlantic there has to be some peripheral 3700 02:20:28,430 --> 02:20:26,790 materials of civilization that was at 3701 02:20:30,830 --> 02:20:28,440 center in the heart of Atlantic must 3702 02:20:32,511 --> 02:20:30,840 have had peripheral activities on the 3703 02:20:34,610 --> 02:20:32,521 American continent and the european 3704 02:20:36,950 --> 02:20:34,620 african continent's and i would want to 3705 02:20:38,990 --> 02:20:36,960 see specific evidence that would not 3706 02:20:41,630 --> 02:20:39,000 only show an advanced culture but also 3707 02:20:44,030 --> 02:20:41,640 will be dateable scientifically dein 3708 02:20:45,800 --> 02:20:44,040 table as well and I'm not a big follower 3709 02:20:47,720 --> 02:20:45,810 of radiocarbon dating for its accuracy 3710 02:20:49,820 --> 02:20:47,730 but when you're talking about thousands 3711 02:20:51,080 --> 02:20:49,830 of years then it is reasonably accurate 3712 02:20:52,460 --> 02:20:51,090 when it's not very good when it comes 3713 02:20:54,950 --> 02:20:52,470 down to 50 years or something like that 3714 02:20:57,230 --> 02:20:54,960 so you you would that you would have to 3715 02:20:59,420 --> 02:20:57,240 produce for me something of under theory 3716 02:21:01,790 --> 02:20:59,430 and that and what I would be looking for 3717 02:21:03,860 --> 02:21:01,800 and then with any Theory any scientific 3718 02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:03,870 theory running historical theory you 3719 02:21:10,100 --> 02:21:07,290 propose a theory and then it's tested by 3720 02:21:12,740 --> 02:21:10,110 other people and they you produce you 3721 02:21:14,690 --> 02:21:12,750 produce some sort of prophecy as to what 3722 02:21:17,120 --> 02:21:14,700 will be found to confirm your theory and 3723 02:21:19,190 --> 02:21:17,130 then people go and look for it so I 3724 02:21:21,140 --> 02:21:19,200 would like to know what evidence do we 3725 02:21:23,180 --> 02:21:21,150 have archaeologically speaking 3726 02:21:25,250 --> 02:21:23,190 for an advanced culture in the middle of 3727 02:21:28,100 --> 02:21:25,260 the Atlantic which has periphery 3728 02:21:28,580 --> 02:21:28,110 outliers on the continents that exists 3729 02:21:30,591 --> 02:21:28,590 today 3730 02:21:36,470 --> 02:21:30,601 that's one if you're gonna tune on to 3731 02:21:38,720 --> 02:21:36,480 say the pyramids today no no and that's 3732 02:21:42,591 --> 02:21:38,730 that's not not it at all I know that 3733 02:21:44,990 --> 02:21:42,601 there are locations like well again go 3734 02:21:48,500 --> 02:21:45,000 back the Tapei would be one at least one 3735 02:21:49,910 --> 02:21:48,510 one potential piece of evidence that is 3736 02:21:54,770 --> 02:21:49,920 there based around that but I know we've 3737 02:21:56,091 --> 02:21:54,780 discussed at length I'm aware that's why 3738 02:22:00,530 --> 02:21:56,101 it's like well you know for myself 3739 02:22:02,870 --> 02:22:00,540 beyond its no way you know it's not it's 3740 02:22:05,330 --> 02:22:02,880 not even close to any of the great 3741 02:22:07,400 --> 02:22:05,340 civilizations of the ancient Mesopotamia 3742 02:22:09,230 --> 02:22:07,410 is always offered Anatolia czar ways off 3743 02:22:11,091 --> 02:22:09,240 and it's sitting on a hill in the middle 3744 02:22:14,120 --> 02:22:11,101 of nowhere and the Northeast and sorry 3745 02:22:17,030 --> 02:22:14,130 southeast Turkey today and and and it's 3746 02:22:19,070 --> 02:22:17,040 quite clearly a hunter-gatherer location 3747 02:22:21,290 --> 02:22:19,080 is that it's not it's primitive apart 3748 02:22:23,750 --> 02:22:21,300 from the carving okay it's nothing 3749 02:22:25,190 --> 02:22:23,760 special so what is this civilization 3750 02:22:27,261 --> 02:22:25,200 we're talking about you know that it 3751 02:22:29,390 --> 02:22:27,271 it's much more akin to what you see in 3752 02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:29,400 Minoan culture where you do have a 3753 02:22:35,060 --> 02:22:32,130 sophisticated civilization in that case 3754 02:22:37,100 --> 02:22:35,070 which was destroyed and wiped out so 3755 02:22:38,480 --> 02:22:37,110 you've got to you've got to button there 3756 02:22:40,280 --> 02:22:38,490 we do have archaeological historical 3757 02:22:44,030 --> 02:22:40,290 evidence of what I'd say is where's the 3758 02:22:47,320 --> 02:22:44,040 matching evidence for 10,000 BC along 3759 02:22:49,880 --> 02:22:47,330 the shorelines of the Atlantic Ocean 3760 02:22:51,020 --> 02:22:49,890 well again it's also the line of 3761 02:22:52,551 --> 02:22:51,030 questioning is to try and maybe pique 3762 02:22:54,140 --> 02:22:52,561 your interest so that maybe you could 3763 02:22:55,580 --> 02:22:54,150 make a TV special about it further on 3764 02:22:58,400 --> 02:22:55,590 down the line if you'd like to oh I'm 3765 02:22:59,930 --> 02:22:58,410 too much of an old sketch you'll have to 3766 02:23:03,680 --> 02:22:59,940 get somebody else to do that sort of 3767 02:23:06,200 --> 02:23:03,690 thing well anyway I'm far too old to be 3768 02:23:08,480 --> 02:23:06,210 doing TV now well either way it's I I 3769 02:23:12,230 --> 02:23:08,490 know that you and going going on into 3770 02:23:14,210 --> 02:23:12,240 into our final into our final segment of 3771 02:23:17,110 --> 02:23:14,220 the day I know that you do have a new 3772 02:23:18,980 --> 02:23:17,120 special that we talked about earlier on 3773 02:23:21,320 --> 02:23:18,990 did you want to go a little bit more 3774 02:23:23,030 --> 02:23:21,330 into that for the listeners at home for 3775 02:23:25,700 --> 02:23:23,040 the what sorry what's what part of it Oh 3776 02:23:27,110 --> 02:23:25,710 to it the new special that you have that 3777 02:23:29,180 --> 02:23:27,120 that's being that's been produced that 3778 02:23:30,470 --> 02:23:29,190 that's going to be released soon oh you 3779 02:23:32,960 --> 02:23:30,480 made the film yes 3780 02:23:35,030 --> 02:23:32,970 all right okay well it's it's an ongoing 3781 02:23:36,350 --> 02:23:35,040 project I mean you've you've got there 3782 02:23:38,150 --> 02:23:36,360 your pants of evidence movie where she 3783 02:23:40,250 --> 02:23:38,160 wish you've watched and it's about two 3784 02:23:42,290 --> 02:23:40,260 hours long and you can imagine they had 3785 02:23:44,660 --> 02:23:42,300 they had something like 900 hours of 3786 02:23:45,980 --> 02:23:44,670 footage something ridiculous like that 3787 02:23:48,140 --> 02:23:45,990 so that they filmed over the pier 3788 02:23:50,000 --> 02:23:48,150 because it took Tim Mahoney about 10 3789 02:23:52,820 --> 02:23:50,010 years to make that movie the director 3790 02:23:55,370 --> 02:23:52,830 and so he's got lots of footage if at 3791 02:23:56,480 --> 02:23:55,380 these biggest problem is that technology 3792 02:23:58,100 --> 02:23:56,490 has moved on and some of the footage 3793 02:24:00,080 --> 02:23:58,110 he's got now he's not HD anymore so he 3794 02:24:01,730 --> 02:24:00,090 can't use it so he's got this dilemma 3795 02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:01,740 tell me to recreate the stuff that he 3796 02:24:06,560 --> 02:24:04,050 filmed you know in 2003 or whatever that 3797 02:24:10,670 --> 02:24:06,570 he can't put into his movies now but 3798 02:24:12,980 --> 02:24:10,680 anyway we're we're off to Israel in in 3799 02:24:15,350 --> 02:24:12,990 noise and now June May a May I think 3800 02:24:17,090 --> 02:24:15,360 it's May we're going and we're going to 3801 02:24:19,910 --> 02:24:17,100 be filming more material there that 3802 02:24:22,160 --> 02:24:19,920 moves us on into the conquest era and 3803 02:24:24,050 --> 02:24:22,170 Joshua and then it eventually into the 3804 02:24:27,110 --> 02:24:24,060 United Monarchy period of David and Saul 3805 02:24:29,030 --> 02:24:27,120 and Solomon and Saul as well so we'll be 3806 02:24:32,690 --> 02:24:29,040 filming all that material over the month 3807 02:24:34,970 --> 02:24:32,700 of May and then he's going to be editing 3808 02:24:37,340 --> 02:24:34,980 all this so there is a lot of things 3809 02:24:39,590 --> 02:24:37,350 going on but what he intends to do as 3810 02:24:42,860 --> 02:24:39,600 far as I understand it is that he's 3811 02:24:45,350 --> 02:24:42,870 going to first of all turn the original 3812 02:24:47,480 --> 02:24:45,360 movie the 2-hour movie with the extra 3813 02:24:49,910 --> 02:24:47,490 footage he's got and the footage were 3814 02:24:51,890 --> 02:24:49,920 going to film in in Israel in the summer 3815 02:24:55,011 --> 02:24:51,900 he's going to turn that into a 12 part 3816 02:24:57,140 --> 02:24:55,021 TV series so those people are missed the 3817 02:24:59,180 --> 02:24:57,150 film when it came out on the circuit the 3818 02:25:01,580 --> 02:24:59,190 documentary movie or have not got the 3819 02:25:04,280 --> 02:25:01,590 DVDs will be able to watch a 12 part 3820 02:25:06,020 --> 02:25:04,290 series version of it on TV somewhere I'm 3821 02:25:09,530 --> 02:25:06,030 not sure he's got the broadcaster sorted 3822 02:25:11,150 --> 02:25:09,540 out yet and then he's moving on the plan 3823 02:25:13,040 --> 02:25:11,160 is to move on and to deal with the 3824 02:25:14,690 --> 02:25:13,050 United Monarchy period and javadi Monica 3825 02:25:17,060 --> 02:25:14,700 period so we're moving all the way 3826 02:25:20,150 --> 02:25:17,070 through biblical history and trying to 3827 02:25:22,660 --> 02:25:20,160 equate the archaeology we find in the 3828 02:25:25,280 --> 02:25:22,670 holy land in Palestine Syria and Israel 3829 02:25:26,630 --> 02:25:25,290 with the Egyptian evidence based on the 3830 02:25:28,880 --> 02:25:26,640 new timeline of the new chronology 3831 02:25:30,860 --> 02:25:28,890 that's the whole idea of it to show that 3832 02:25:32,511 --> 02:25:30,870 it's not just the exercycle quest that 3833 02:25:34,190 --> 02:25:32,521 worked very well but in the entire 3834 02:25:35,720 --> 02:25:34,200 history of Israel works well with 3835 02:25:37,910 --> 02:25:35,730 Egyptian history because one of the 3836 02:25:40,220 --> 02:25:37,920 great issues that's been raised always 3837 02:25:42,080 --> 02:25:40,230 in my material is oh well it might work 3838 02:25:43,730 --> 02:25:42,090 for the Exodus tomorrow it might work 3839 02:25:45,261 --> 02:25:43,740 for the conquest but what about the 3840 02:25:47,300 --> 02:25:45,271 United Monarchy what about the judges 3841 02:25:48,841 --> 02:25:47,310 bird you can't make that work surely so 3842 02:25:50,251 --> 02:25:48,851 they're all sort of saying oh you 3843 02:25:52,081 --> 02:25:50,261 you know you got to prove your entire 3844 02:25:55,650 --> 02:25:52,091 case on quietiy to do that like here 3845 02:25:57,241 --> 02:25:55,660 hold my beer I'll do that so let me now 3846 02:25:58,801 --> 02:25:57,251 you know they haven't read my books they 3847 02:26:01,531 --> 02:25:58,811 don't know I've already done it so I'll 3848 02:26:03,751 --> 02:26:01,541 just surprise them the thing is the 3849 02:26:05,400 --> 02:26:03,761 media you know people find it easier to 3850 02:26:08,220 --> 02:26:05,410 watch a film or to watch a TV should 3851 02:26:09,661 --> 02:26:08,230 they do read a book so you know you you 3852 02:26:10,980 --> 02:26:09,671 find although you've written books and 3853 02:26:12,690 --> 02:26:10,990 some of them have been bestsellers not 3854 02:26:15,241 --> 02:26:12,700 everybody knows about them and and 3855 02:26:16,531 --> 02:26:15,251 generations you know died off a new 3856 02:26:17,850 --> 02:26:16,541 generation has come along I've never 3857 02:26:20,190 --> 02:26:17,860 seen Pharaohs and kings that don't know 3858 02:26:21,991 --> 02:26:20,200 what it's about never heard of me not 3859 02:26:24,841 --> 02:26:22,001 surprisingly so they've got to be 3860 02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:24,851 reintroduced to this material so it we 3861 02:26:28,020 --> 02:26:26,530 have to adapt to the circumstances of 3862 02:26:30,331 --> 02:26:28,030 the new media and this thing has to be 3863 02:26:33,541 --> 02:26:30,341 made into TV and film and and it will be 3864 02:26:35,491 --> 02:26:33,551 and whether I survive the whole exercise 3865 02:26:35,940 --> 02:26:35,501 another matter you know how long it's 3866 02:26:39,121 --> 02:26:35,950 gonna take 3867 02:26:42,211 --> 02:26:39,131 well I'm sure you bust man like yourself 3868 02:26:46,951 --> 02:26:42,221 with a very very fantastic Manchester 3869 02:26:48,541 --> 02:26:46,961 accent I'm sure you'll do fine okay and 3870 02:26:50,100 --> 02:26:48,551 you know we've been at this for about 3871 02:26:52,831 --> 02:26:50,110 two and a half hours and I know this 3872 02:26:56,071 --> 02:26:52,841 yeah one of the most information-packed 3873 02:26:58,171 --> 02:26:56,081 shows we've done and quite some time and 3874 02:27:00,751 --> 02:26:58,181 it's it's been a a tis a very big 3875 02:27:02,011 --> 02:27:00,761 passion of mine as far as it sounds it 3876 02:27:05,190 --> 02:27:02,021 sounds like I've worn you out 3877 02:27:07,110 --> 02:27:05,200 oh no I the matter well no I I know that 3878 02:27:08,761 --> 02:27:07,120 you you wanted to I know that it's late 3879 02:27:09,690 --> 02:27:08,771 there it's almost about 10:30 so I want 3880 02:27:11,041 --> 02:27:09,700 to make sure you'd have some time before 3881 02:27:13,501 --> 02:27:11,051 you head to bed I didn't want to keep 3882 02:27:15,921 --> 02:27:13,511 you eight absolutely Coco a hot-water 3883 02:27:18,421 --> 02:27:15,931 bottle absolutely that's what I need now 3884 02:27:19,680 --> 02:27:18,431 my wife is just arriving at home so 3885 02:27:21,421 --> 02:27:19,690 we're gonna have to get supper ready 3886 02:27:25,140 --> 02:27:21,431 it's about 4:30 p.m. Eastern Standard 3887 02:27:27,241 --> 02:27:25,150 Time but but David I I greatly 3888 02:27:29,761 --> 02:27:27,251 appreciate you coming on to the show and 3889 02:27:31,230 --> 02:27:29,771 giving us this on its peak great 3890 02:27:33,031 --> 02:27:31,240 something I've enjoyed it well you know 3891 02:27:35,071 --> 02:27:33,041 fantastic and I know that there are some 3892 02:27:36,871 --> 02:27:35,081 people who are have been stating over 3893 02:27:38,730 --> 02:27:36,881 and over again that I have to get you 3894 02:27:40,980 --> 02:27:38,740 Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson onto 3895 02:27:42,690 --> 02:27:40,990 one show and I don't know how much 3896 02:27:45,751 --> 02:27:42,700 Scotch that would cost me to be able to 3897 02:27:47,701 --> 02:27:45,761 do that if if I could organise that at 3898 02:27:50,610 --> 02:27:47,711 some point I'm sure that the listeners 3899 02:27:52,140 --> 02:27:50,620 at home would appreciate it so you never 3900 02:27:53,881 --> 02:27:52,150 know you may get a phone call or a text 3901 02:27:56,131 --> 02:27:53,891 message or an email at some point with 3902 02:27:57,900 --> 02:27:56,141 with an invitation back for that but 3903 02:27:59,491 --> 02:27:57,910 other than that you are a friend of the 3904 02:28:00,961 --> 02:27:59,501 den of lore if you ever do want to come 3905 02:28:02,700 --> 02:28:00,971 back on the show just shoot me an email 3906 02:28:05,881 --> 02:28:02,710 you are always more than welcome 3907 02:28:07,680 --> 02:28:05,891 and again I'm getting tons of thanks 3908 02:28:10,410 --> 02:28:07,690 from from the listeners at home for for 3909 02:28:12,631 --> 02:28:10,420 your time and to enter efforts so I am 3910 02:28:14,100 --> 02:28:12,641 going to do what we normally do here at 3911 02:28:17,091 --> 02:28:14,110 the den of lore and I'm going to play 3912 02:28:20,190 --> 02:28:17,101 our outro music for you which is 3913 02:28:23,700 --> 02:28:20,200 basically our way to serenade you to to 3914 02:28:26,160 --> 02:28:23,710 the land of sleep and evenings in where 3915 02:28:27,961 --> 02:28:26,170 you are one moment thank you thank you 3916 02:28:29,730 --> 02:28:27,971 very much good notch everybody that good 3917 02:28:34,921 --> 02:28:29,740 night and this is a brooklyn brook for 3918 02:28:38,430 --> 02:28:34,931 free spellbound and so that was david 3919 02:28:41,820 --> 02:28:38,440 roll Egyptologist and one of the world's 3920 02:28:46,140 --> 02:28:41,830 top historians who joined us on for 3921 02:28:48,990 --> 02:28:46,150 episode 24 again thank you all for 3922 02:28:51,770 --> 02:28:49,000 joining us at home Kevin I hope you 3923 02:28:55,011 --> 02:28:51,780 enjoyed the download of the episode and 3924 02:28:57,541 --> 02:28:55,021 next week we are going to be having 3925 02:29:00,331 --> 02:28:57,551 Edward nightingale back on the show to 3926 02:29:03,990 --> 02:29:00,341 talk the Giza plan with regards to the 3927 02:29:06,541 --> 02:29:04,000 golden ratio and I'm we we had a walk 3928 02:29:09,720 --> 02:29:06,551 for about an hour David for episode 22 3929 02:29:12,480 --> 02:29:09,730 and 4 like that hour was just it was 3930 02:29:14,461 --> 02:29:12,490 just pure mathematics and design which 3931 02:29:15,511 --> 02:29:14,471 which I'm sure you may love saw I'll 3932 02:29:16,980 --> 02:29:15,521 send you a link to that if you want to 3933 02:29:19,831 --> 02:29:16,990 come check it out 3934 02:29:22,711 --> 02:29:19,841 you know for everyone at home this is a 3935 02:29:25,200 --> 02:29:22,721 Christian suitor signing off and again 3936 02:29:27,421 --> 02:29:25,210 we'll see you next week Friday at 8 3